Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")

Suffice it to say that it's the general rules of the IOC that need addressing, and any questioning of current athletes will just lead to the same responses: "you only question her because of her appearance" and "such medical data shouldn't be available to the public".

You know what? To an extent, you're right. We're questioning the appearance of those boxers - and we're doing it for reasons that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years.

First off, sex itself has a fairly simple definition, despite some people who want to argue about what they think are terminological gotchas. Within any specific species that reproduces sexually via the merging of two different sized gametes (anisogamous species), there are two sexes that have evolved as a result of those gametes being different sizes and having different production mechanisms. One sex will have evolved the anatomical structures for that species that are required to support the production of large sessile gametes (eggs), and we call that sex female. The other sex will have evolved the anatomical structures for that species that are required to support the production of small motile gametes (sperm). Those definitions do not require actual production of gametes at all - a prepubescent male is still a male, because they have the structures that evolved to support production of sperm; a sterile female is still a female because they have the structures that evolved to support the production of eggs. Not all elements of the anatomy are required to be present, nor are they required to be function.

In anisogamous species, there are only two sexes because there are only two types of gametes - and there are only two body types that have evolved to support those gametes.

That doesn't mean that everything always goes perfectly. Reproduction isn't foolproof. So sometimes things get wonky, parts don't develop as expected, and processes get derailed.

That doesn't mean that someone with a derailed process is a different sex or is a blend of the sexes - it just means that it might be difficult for us to properly decide which category they belong to. A person with a male-specific DSD is still a male. A person with a female-specific DSD is still a female.

Particularly key to this is the understanding that karyotype (whether you're XX or XY or X0 or XXXXXXXXY or any other combination) doesn't dictate a person's sex. Karyotype doesn't define sex - it's merely the mechanism by which sex develops in an embryo.

Now let me circle back to the appearances from above.

Appearances come into play because humans are a sexually dimorphic species. That means that in addition to having different reproductive anatomy on the basis of sex, we've also evolved a host of other sex-specific and sex-linked characteristics that differ by sex. Secondary sex characteristics are the most obvious of these, and they represent traits that are directly linked to sex in their development and expression. This includes things like: breasts, wider hips, wider and more rounded pelvic opening, different angle of femur to hip attachment for females; facial and body hair, enlarged adam's apple, denser muscle structure, narrower hips, and nipple placement in males. Sex correlated characteristics are those that differ statistically by sex, but aren't directly resultant from sex-specific development processes. That includes things like difference in overall height and size.

All in all, there are dozens - maybe hundreds - of sex-related and sex-correlated markers in humans. Everything from overall body shape to facial conformation to size comes into play. For simplicity, let's say there are 50 characteristics that differ by sex, most of which are sex-linked, and the remainder of which are sex-correlated. The number of people who fit a perfect textbook "Barbie vs G.I. Joe" exemplar of sex exactly is vanishingly small. But the overwhelming majority of people will fit 47 or 48 of those characteristics, and only really show ambiguity or overlap in a couple. So yeah - some females might have a few characteristics more commonly associated with males. One might argue that Grace Jones has the height, jawline, and muscularity that would normally be considered "masculine", and thus is a fairly "manly" looking person - but that's only in comparison to other females. You stick Grace Jones next to an average male, and it's blatantly obvious that Jones is female. There's no question about it.

The same thing is true for Khelif and Ting, just as it was true for Semenya, Wambui, and Niyonsaba. They have all of the characteristics of an average male human being - and none of the characteristics of a female.

Khelif doesn't look like a female with some male-like traits. Khelif doesn't even look like someone with half male and half female traits - they look like someone with completely male traits. Ting doesn't look androgynous - Ting looks male.

Semenya, Wambui, and Niyonsaba all looked completely male - they all have all of the visual markers for the male sex that our species has developed. Which is not surprising because they are all males.

What is being objected to is sporting bodies allowing males to compete in female sports. Whether those males are transgender or have a DSD is irrelevant. What matters is that males have a different body type, and it is manifestly unfair to females for them to be allowed to compete in female sports. We don't care how they identify, nor do we care what their passport says - we care what they are.
 
Because you list out Semenya, Wambui, and Niyonsaba as having "both male and female" characteristics.
This is undisputably true and it is why they were all missexed at birth. Quite probably this is also the case for the two boxers under dispute, but we do not yet know.

It's misleading and it suggests that somehow all of them were androgynous enough that nobody could possibly infer their sexes.
No one could realistically make that inference when they were born, and people are generally fairly reluctant to backtrack on this sort of thing, especially in more conservative cultures.

You're pretending like obvious males aren't clearly males because... I don't really know why. Some impetus toward being nice to people who aren't here?
Your guess is a good one. It is good to be empathetic towards people who've been told they were girls throughout childhood only to discover—after years or decades of grueling training—that they were placed in the wrong sex category and sports league through no fault of their own.

ETA: Before you go off on me, it is also good to be empathetic to the 4th, 5th, and 6th place competitors who ought to have been on that podium in Rio, and the IOC has a duty to people like them to take the trouble to formulate and enforce scientifically-grounded inclusion for criteria in the female category.
 
Last edited:
Hard agree on the highlighted bit.

IOC gave up sex-testing back in the 90s and haven't seriously reconsidered even after the infamous all-XY podium back in 2016.

IOC gave up sex-testing back in the 90s even though the vast majority of female athletes wanted it to continue. Which rather begs the question of why IOC gave it up in the first place.
 
How do you know what genitals Khelif has?

Because if she had a penis it is highly unlikely she would have spent her whole life as a female, competed as a female, and assigned female at birth. Sheesh, your whole argument that she 'must' be a man cause she looks like one (to you) is the most bigoted, inane thing I've read from you, and there's a lot to chose from. Have you seen photos of her outside the boxing ring, or the many childhood photos of her? She's a woman. Only your disgusting worldview prevents you from admitting that you can't tell a person's sex from a couple photos.
 
...snip...
Khelif doesn't look like a female with some male-like traits. Khelif doesn't even look like someone with half male and half female traits - they look like someone with completely male traits. Ting doesn't look androgynous - Ting looks male.

Semenya, Wambui, and Niyonsaba all looked completely male - they all have all of the visual markers for the male sex that our species has developed. Which is not surprising because they are all males.

What is being objected to is sporting bodies allowing males to compete in female sports. Whether those males are transgender or have a DSD is irrelevant. What matters is that males have a different body type, and it is manifestly unfair to females for them to be allowed to compete in female sports. We don't care how they identify, nor do we care what their passport says - we care what they are.

Disgusting. They don't look male to me. Maybe you have JFKs brain worm and it's affecting your perception. You only care when the controversy makes it important to you. You never bothered to read their life story, growing up as girls and women, cause it doesn't fit your agenda.
 
Maybe you have JFKs brain worm and it's affecting your perception. You only care when the controversy makes it important to you. You never bothered to read their life story, growing up as girls and women, cause it doesn't fit your agenda.
I've highlighted all the bits where you went after the arguer instead of addressing their argument.

They don't look male to me.
If only there were a vastly better, scientifically grounded way to know the truth.
 
Last edited:
Because if she had a penis it is highly unlikely she would have spent her whole life as a female, competed as a female, and assigned female at birth. Sheesh, your whole argument that she 'must' be a man cause she looks like one (to you) is the most bigoted, inane thing I've read from you, and there's a lot to chose from. Have you seen photos of her outside the boxing ring, or the many childhood photos of her? She's a woman. Only your disgusting worldview prevents you from admitting that you can't tell a person's sex from a couple photos.

Well, look at this way. By barring intersex males from female competitions and introducing systematic testing, these definitely female athletes will be able to compete without controversy and harrasment. Seems like a win-win to me.
 
Last edited:
I've highlighted all the bits where you went after the arguer instead of addressing their argument.

If only there were a vastly better, scientifically grounded way to know the truth.

There was no argument! Only "looks male to me" Is that an acceptable scientific argument to you?? How about the facts, which is that her birth certificate lists here as female, she has lived and competed as a female her whole life. If you have facts rather than innuendos to present, then do so.
 
Well, look at this way. By barring intersex males from female competitions and introducing systematic testing, these definitely female athletes will be able to compete without controversy and harrasment. Seems like a win-win to me.

No problem, so critique the system and not the participants. "She looks like a man to me" doesn't help reform anything.
 
There was no argument!
Here you go:
What is being objected to is sporting bodies allowing males to compete in female sports. Whether those males are transgender or have a DSD is irrelevant. What matters is that males have a different body type, and it is manifestly unfair to females for them to be allowed to compete in female sports.
It's worth noting that this objection stands for athletes like Semenya, Wambui, & Niyonsaba so you don't need to wait until we discover the facts about the 2024 competitors in order to address it.
 
Last edited:
Because if she had a penis it is highly unlikely she would have spent her whole life as a female, competed as a female, and assigned female at birth.
Alternatively, there's also the very plausible explanation that Khelif has a DSD, and was born with ambiguous genitals. In an extremely religiously conservative nation, where females are treated as lesser beings, they are very likely to have been *actually assigned* female without any further investigation, simply because they were viewed as a "failed" male. And once *assigned* they would have been raised as female. Then puberty happens, and the rest of their characteristics develop.

Same situation as Semenya. Misidentified as female as an infant, then raised as a female. And once that begins, in conservative nations, there really isn't a lot of going back and saying "Oh, well, now that we've hit 13, it seems we were wrong, and they're actually a male and are now rapidly developing into a male body with male features".

Sheesh, your whole argument that she 'must' be a man cause she looks like one (to you) is the most bigoted, inane thing I've read from you, and there's a lot to chose from. Have you seen photos of her outside the boxing ring, or the many childhood photos of her? She's a woman. Only your disgusting worldview prevents you from admitting that you can't tell a person's sex from a couple photos.

Outside the ring... have YOU seen photos of Khelif?

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/olympic-boxer-imane-khelif-calls-for-end-to-bullying-after-backlash-over-gender-misconceptions-2886bcb3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif
https://olympics.com/en/paris-2024/athlete/imane-khelif_1540353
https://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/402370-imane-khelif
https://www.boxingscene.com/misunderstanding-imane-khelifs-past-present--185133
https://decripto.org/en/paris-olympics-boxing-federation-on-the-case-of-imane-khelif-subjected-to-tests-but-the-results-are-confidential/


Scroll through their Facebook. There are a lot of photos and videos of Khelif in a variety of situations, including working out. Look through them with an open mind, and give it some real consideration. There are no female traits involved in Khelif's face or body. None at all.

I'll give you tweezed eyebrows, and some occasional make-up. But that's adornment, it's not inherent traits.

Look, I feel for Khelif and Yu-Ting, just as I felt for Semenya. It absolutely sucks to have your whole life drawn out onto a public stage. I don't think it's appropriate or acceptable for either of them to be harassed for having a DSD.

On the other hand, however, that they're allowed to compete against females is an outright travesty. It's completely unfair to female athletes, and it's something that IOC should absolutely be run through the wringer for.
 
There was no argument! Only "looks male to me" Is that an acceptable scientific argument to you?? How about the facts, which is that her birth certificate lists here as female, she has lived and competed as a female her whole life. If you have facts rather than innuendos to present, then do so.

Semenya's birth certificate listed them as female, and they lived and competed as a female too. But hey, turns out they were male the whole time.

People who were incensed when all three of the winners on the podium were males last time around were also called names and castigated as evil bigots. But yeah - turns out we were all correct in being able to visually identify all three of them as males.
 
She has a vagina, which toilet should she use?
How do you know what genitals Khelif has?


This?!
Imane Khelif is not “biological male” or “transgender”. She was assigned female at birth, based on the observed external genitalia. She appears to have a condition known as differences of sex development ( DSD ), previously termed as “intersex”.
Imane Khelif: Is it accurate to label this female-born boxer as ‘biological male’ or ‘transgender’? (BusinessInsiderIndia, Aug 2, 2024)


So which toilet should she use?
 
Last edited:
Same ones as everyone else.

Several decades ago, I visited Paris. Maybe things have changed since then, it was a long time ago, but at the time the public toilets were all pay toilets, and they weren't particularly clean. I only encountered one free public toilet in France, and it was also clean.

And it was at the US war memorial at Normandy.

God damn but that made me proud to be an American. :usa:
 
Same ones as everyone else.

[IMGw=640]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20240806/5f556bcf373fde2bafacbea35a2d892e.jpg[/IMGw]

Nice :) Seriously though, the same people that are arguing that penis and vagina dictates which private spaces you go to, are now gordian knotting themselves to an impressive degree.
I don't actually know how they feel about vagina owners in private spaces tbf, all the fuss has been about penis owners in private spaces.
 
Seriously though, the same people that are arguing that penis and vagina dictates which private spaces you go to, are now gordian knotting themselves to an impressive degree.
Why should anyone assume answers derived for the sake of fairness in sport would track answers derived from other values in other contexts?
 

Back
Top Bottom