Differences in Sex Development (aka "intersex")

[Olmstead]

Because female sport is predicated on keeping male athletes out.

I agree, but I can already see the discourse play out in great detail, and I just don't have the patience for it.

Suffice it to say that it's the general rules of the IOC that need addressing, and any questioning of current athletes will just lead to the same responses: "you only question her because of her appearance" and "such medical data shouldn't be available to the public".

Of course, questioning the IOC will only lead to the same responses as well: "Only female athletes should compete in female sports!" IOC: "How do you know that isn't the case?"

Yep, it's an opt-out for me.

 

[d4m10n]

Suffice it to say that it's the general rules of the IOC that need addressing, and any questioning of current athletes will just lead to the same responses: "you only question her because of her appearance" and "such medical data shouldn't be available to the public".

Hard agree on the highlighted bit.

IOC gave up sex-testing back in the 90s and haven't seriously reconsidered even after the infamous all-XY podium back in 2016.

 

[theprestige]

Suffice it to say that it's the general rules of the IOC that need addressing

Suffice nothing. Necessary to say, yes, but nowhere near sufficient. Suffice to say we need to address the entire paradigm of sociopolitical woo that counts the IOC's rules among the least of its harms.

 

[d4m10n]

Meanwhile on X.com Svetlana Staneva is going mildly viral for throwing up two fingers in what appears to be a defiant gesture directed towards the IOC. Presumably she is making a reference to the distinctive shape of both of her sex chromosomes, and (even more presumably) the claim that her opponent's set doesn't match.

 

[Ziggurat]

Does the IOC want to keep intersex males out of the female category or not?

They do not.

Do they have procedures in place for doing that or not?

They do not.

Do they simply trust national documents?

They do.

Do such national documents always go by biology or not?

They do not.

 

[dann]

I stumbled on this CNN article:

The IBA, which was stripped of its recognition as the official boxing body for the Games by the IOC for corruption and financial related issues, also disqualified featherweight Taiwanese boxer Lin Yu-ting boxer for the same reason.
The IBA did not say what test the pair had been subjected to. “The athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential,” it said.
IOC spokesperson Adams dismissed the IBA’s test, calling it “arbitrary,” and said the pair were disqualified by the IBA “without any due process.”
Why Italian boxer Angela Carini apologized to Olympic fight winner Imane Khelif (CNN, Aug 2, 2024)

A "recognized test," but "the specifics remain confidential"?
Yeah, right!

 

[d4m10n]

A "recognized test," but "the specifics remain confidential"?

It would obviously be unethical to disclose the specifics of medical testing publicly, but the IBA reportedly warned the IOC about the results of genetic testing over a year ago, according to leaked private correspondence.

 

[Olmstead]

I stumbled on this CNN article:



A "recognized test," but "the specifics remain confidential"?
Yeah, right!

You might note that the IOC has also failed to disclose any specifics. So, you know, have fun with that one.

 

[Aber]

A "recognized test," but "the specifics remain confidential"?
Yeah, right!

IIRC IBA regulations specified that to compete as a women required XX chromosomes.

It is not difficult to make an educated guess as to the specifics of the test.

 

[theprestige]

It would obviously be unethical to disclose the specifics of medical testing publicly

It isn't obvious to me.

 

[Ziggurat]

It isn't obvious to me.

Tests were administered under the understanding that results would be confidential, and that understanding was factored into the decision to take the test. Making them public now would violate that understanding. You can change that going forward relatively easily, but there are problems with changing that retroactively.

 

[Samson]

I stumbled on this CNN article:



A "recognized test," but "the specifics remain confidential"?
Yeah, right!

The IBA got it right to never mention testosterone, which exists in all bodies.
XY chromosomes exist in 49% of bodies, all male.

 

[theprestige]

Tests were administered under the understanding that results would be confidential, and that understanding was factored into the decision to take the test. Making them public now would violate that understanding. You can change that going forward relatively easily, but there are problems with changing that retroactively.

Thanks, that's the piece I was missing. Yes, I agree that in this case the promise of confidentiality should be kept.

In my view, Olympic athletes are public figures, competing publicly in a public exhibition of sports, overseen by a public-facing organization. Transparency in determining qualification to compete, not confidentiality, should be the standard.

 

[Ziggurat]

XY chromosomes exist in 49% of bodies, all male.

Mostly male. There are a few rare cases where genetic defects can lead someone with XY chromosomes to be biologically female. People with non-functioning SRY genes, for example, can be biologically female with XY chromosomes. This is different than other disorders of sexual development where someone has XY chromosomes, is biologically male, but may appear female at birth. Genetic testing to determine this would need to identify not only the chromosomes present but the actual specific genes at play.

 

[d4m10n]

Many of the underlying facts are still in contention, but here is a good article with the most up-to-date reporting I've yet seen:
https://sports.yahoo.com/imane-khelif-breaks-silence-boxing-082555980.html

Basically, the formerly recognized international boxing authority DQ'd two competitors based on genetic testing. IOC refuses to accept those results, saying they were "conducted on an ad-hoc basis" instead of (presumably) part of a more systemic testing regime. This is a particularly odd way to discredit the tests since the IOC has completely rejected systemic sex testing throughout the 21st century in favor of ad hoc hormone testing.

It's hard to say for sure, but it seems likely that at least one or two medals in the XX boxing division will be taken home by XY athletes this year. This will be celebrated by gender activists even though it's much more about sex than gender.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is a particularly odd way to discredit the tests since the IOC has completely rejected systemic sex testing throughout the 21st century in favor of ad hoc hormone testing.

As far as I can tell, the IOC isn't even doing hormone testing for boxing this year. If they are, they have not made this information easily available.

 

[8enotto]

I seen pictures of that Algerian boxer, I doubt the ioc even bothered with pictures or watching his/her first match.

Y

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why on Earth do you think I think that?

Because you list out Semenya, Wambui, and Niyonsaba as having "both male and female" characteristics. It's misleading and it suggests that somehow all of them were androgynous enough that nobody could possibly infer their sexes. And that's just false - all three of them are visibly and clearly male, all of them have male-specific DSDs. You're pretending like obvious males aren't clearly males because... I don't really know why. Some impetus toward being nice to people who aren't here? Some misguided belief that anyone who isn't 100% textbook perfectly male can be considered for eviction to the lower realm of "women"?

Feelings are valid and even vital, but they don't tell us much about what the IOC ought to have done.

I rather though that my views on what IOC ought to have done were a bit obvious from the sentences that followed where you seem to have stopped reading.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Fair enough. I feel like the opponents deserve to know. But then, the IOC did say the boxers were female, so I guess they do know. Never mind.

Realistically, the IOC said that the boxers have passports that say they're female. Which doesn't actually mean anything in reality.

 

[p0lka]

I seen pictures of that Algerian boxer, I doubt the ioc even bothered with pictures or watching his/her first match.

Y

She has a vagina, which toilet should she use?