Derren Brown's screaming stooges

The OP still seems to be missing the essential point that Derren Berown at no pint cliams he can do magic or any of its real, what he is dong is showing how its done he is not claiming to have magic powers he is a self aonfessed showman who has certainly helpled me with my arguments with the guillable by giving me the knowledge of how theses tricks are done and its been fascinating to watch.
 
Dcdrac said:
The OP still seems to be missing the essential point that Derren Berown at no pint cliams he can do magic or any of its real
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Has it been claimed by anyone here that he could do real magic? Otherwise, I wonder why this is an essential point to miss.

what he is dong is showing how its done
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Actually, no. First of all, DB being a magician, we would expect him to lie about how it is done, and that is OK. But the point made in the OP is that he used methods that are wrong even by his own admission.

We can probably never agree here if the OP is right, but I had decided for myself even before I read the OP, and I am convinced he used a stooge for at least one show.
 
steenkh said:
*snip*
. This would all be very well, if it was not for the obvious use of a stooge: the "normal" guy was obviously an actor, so it was no great trick making him do whatever DB wanted him to do.
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Coming back to this post just to try inject some logic.They guy was not an actor ,I was suspicious o fhis role at teh time and did some research and found his Facebook,his employer etc(as he lives in same County as me).He was even on Derrens forum/blog as having commented on his live show after attending and meeting Derren outside stage door(picture proof Ive seen).So a lot of effort to create a normal person in that case months before.
Point 2. If Derren were to use stooges he would have been outed by now,a national newspaper in UK tried to do just that with his stunt whereby a person woke up in Marrakech after playing Zombie video game in UK!(they followed him secretly whilst he made the show.Suffice to say they didnt find a stooge.

This guy, who had not been hypnotised before by DB, would be hypnotised simply by DB speaking to him through a loudspeaker under his bed at night, and he would be in such a deep trance that he would not notice being brought out of the house and taken to a soggy field where he encountered a lion (if I remember correctly), and after wards he would think it was all but a dream.
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Im not versed in hypnosis but but whose to say it didnt happen that way?

Later the stooge would (without being hypnotised) steal the stuff from a party van abandoned by its driver, and arrange a street party that obviously used a lot more stuff than the contents of one small van.
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He had friends who helped him ,this was shown on the programme I recall.Its a TV show,it wasnt real time and not everything was explained.Is it a big stretch to assume friends and neighbours helped out?

And at the end DB brings him in a deep trance just by slapping his hand on the stooges forehead so that he can be transferred from a real aeroplane, driven in a car to a flight simulator which he then thinks is real, and he steers it down successfully. OK, if it was a real normal guy who found himself in the cockpit, the stress and adrenaline might cause him to not notice that the view is not 3D, and looking more like a computer simulation, so that one could probably pass.

As DB writes himself the use of stooges is artistically repugnant, and I have therefore decided not to see any more shows with Derren Brown.
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As that last quote shows misdirection is a key factor.You just jump to conclusion of stooges because you think its most obvious answer.
 
Lamuella said:
...On the message before the show he says he didn't use stooges in making this show...
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On the message before his "Trick of the Mind" programs he says he doesn't use actors in the show. And yet he was caught red-handed secretly using an actress as a participant in one of the routines.


Lamuella said:
...Why would a professional magician draw your attention to the method he is using of doing his trick time and again? Wouldn't that be the polar opposite of misdirection?
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And, no, in this case, saying you are not using stooges, and then actually using them, is emphatically not the opposite of misdirection. It IS misdirection.

Why? Because except for the occasional Derren Brownoser or fan-boy (the type who are still jumping up and down pretending that he hasn't already been busted using uncredited actors) if he doesn't mention they are not using stooges, many viewers are quite likely to simply assume that is exactly what they ARE doing.

The polar opposite of misdirection would be a magician saying "I am not stuffing this hankerchief into a little thumb shaped tube I am secretly holding in my fist". That would be running, when you are not being chased.

Conversely, claiming your are not using stooges, when you actually are, is running when you ARE being chased. Which is the polar opposite of the polar opposite of misdirection.



steenkh said:
...I am convinced he used a stooge for at least one show.
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I haven't seen the show I take it you are referring to. But, at any rate, all hypnotism subjects I think are stooges of a sort. Even in the absence of any prior arrangements or scripting, they essentially are just playing along with what they gather is expected of them.
 
lane99 said:
On the message before his "Trick of the Mind" programs he says he doesn't use actors in the show. And yet he was caught red-handed secretly using an actress as a participant in one of the routines.
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Do tell?


And, no, in this case, saying you are not using stooges, and then actually using them, is emphatically not the opposite of misdirection. It IS misdirection.

Why? Because except for the occasional Derren Brownoser or fan-boy (the type who are still jumping up and down pretending that he hasn't already been busted using uncredited actors) if he doesn't mention they are not using stooges, many viewers are quite likely to simply assume that is exactly what they ARE doing.
*edit*
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Bolded:do tell?
 
lane99 said:
On the message before his "Trick of the Mind" programs he says he doesn't use actors in the show. And yet he was caught red-handed secretly using an actress as a participant in one of the routines.




And, no, in this case, saying you are not using stooges, and then actually using them, is emphatically not the opposite of misdirection. It IS misdirection.

Why? Because except for the occasional Derren Brownoser or fan-boy (the type who are still jumping up and down pretending that he hasn't already been busted using uncredited actors) if he doesn't mention they are not using stooges, many viewers are quite likely to simply assume that is exactly what they ARE doing.

The polar opposite of misdirection would be a magician saying "I am not stuffing this hankerchief into a little thumb shaped tube I am secretly holding in my fist". That would be running, when you are not being chased.

Conversely, claiming your are not using stooges, when you actually are, is running when you ARE being chased. Which is the polar opposite of the polar opposite of misdirection.





I haven't seen the show I take it you are referring to. But, at any rate, all hypnotism subjects I think are stooges of a sort. Even in the absence of any prior arrangements or scripting, they essentially are just playing along with what they gather is expected of them.
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I assume you are including the ones who have teeth extracted under hypnosis, with no other anaesthetic.
 
silver birch said:
I assume you are including the ones who have teeth extracted under hypnosis, with no other anaesthetic.
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Do you have a link to any medical papers on that (and I mean real scientific papers, which have been published in reputable, peer-reviewed journals)? The only one I can find talks about using hypnosis as an addition to giving patients gas, not instead of it.
 
In my humble opinion, anybody who believes the star of hero at 30,000 feet is not a stooge is very stupid indeed.
 
silver birch said:
In my humble opinion, anybody who believes the star of hero at 30,000 feet is not a stooge is very stupid indeed.
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In my humble opinion, anybody who believes that a man with a beard sits in the clouds and watches us all the time is stupid indeed.

But are we just swapping "stupid indeed" opinions or are we going to get to the evidence that proves you are right to think other people are stupid?

Because so far, you haven't made a very compelling case... beyond "magician fools people on his telly show"... Which isn't really news to anyone.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Do you have a link to any medical papers on that (and I mean real scientific papers, which have been published in reputable, peer-reviewed journals)? The only one I can find talks about using hypnosis as an addition to giving patients gas, not instead of it.
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From a book entitled Medical and dental hypnosis by John Hartland B. Sc., M.B., M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P.
page 360-
Hypnosis in dental surgery.
Whilst the use of hypnosis in dental surgery has been known and appreciated for many years, it has only recently assumed its rightful place. Many workers in this field, such as Radin, Becker, Frost and Wookey in this country,have written and lectured upon the subject, in the United States, Moss, Secter, Heron, and Weinstein are well known for the invaluable contributions they have made in furthering our knowledge in this respect.
Obviously with those patients who can achieve the deep trance state on the first or second attempt, dentistry will present no problems. Most of these will succeed in producing complete analgesia, and many will develop total amnesia for such operations as are performed. In these circumstances there is no quicker or easier way of carrying out any dental operation. the patient can be seated in the chair and put into the trance state instantaneously by a conditioned signal, or within 10 seconds by a normal induction procedure. Anaesthesia of the intended area of operation can be obtained in a further 10 seconds, and the dentist can be proceeding about his business within 30 seconds of the patient entering the surgery. Unfortunately, this is only possible in a very small percentage of the population and is consequently quite unatainable as a routine measure.
 
Stray Cat said:
In my humble opinion, anybody who believes that a man with a beard sits in the clouds and watches us all the time is stupid indeed.

But are we just swapping "stupid indeed" opinions or are we going to get to the evidence that proves you are right to think other people are stupid?

Because so far, you haven't made a very compelling case... beyond "magician fools people on his telly show"... Which isn't really news to anyone.
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I have never said that, precisely because, although DB does magic, with his magicians hat on, so to speak, when he hypnotizes people he claims it is real hypnotism, which is not a magic trick. and its virtually impossible for someone who is not an expert to know if someone is either in a 'wide awake' deep trance, or faking.
 
silver birch said:
From a book entitled Medical and dental hypnosis by John Hartland B. Sc., M.B., M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P.
page 360-
Hypnosis in dental surgery.
Whilst the use of hypnosis in dental surgery has been known and appreciated for many years, it has only recently assumed its rightful place. Many workers in this field, such as Radin, Becker, Frost and Wookey in this country,have written and lectured upon the subject, in the United States, Moss, Secter, Heron, and Weinstein are well known for the invaluable contributions they have made in furthering our knowledge in this respect.
Obviously with those patients who can achieve the deep trance state on the first or second attempt, dentistry will present no problems. Most of these will succeed in producing complete analgesia, and many will develop total amnesia for such operations as are performed. In these circumstances there is no quicker or easier way of carrying out any dental operation. the patient can be seated in the chair and put into the trance state instantaneously by a conditioned signal, or within 10 seconds by a normal induction procedure. Anaesthesia of the intended area of operation can be obtained in a further 10 seconds, and the dentist can be proceeding about his business within 30 seconds of the patient entering the surgery. Unfortunately, this is only possible in a very small percentage of the population and is consequently quite unatainable as a routine measure.
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So that's a "no" then?
 
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