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Derren Brown

Please provide a proper source. Making a statement that cannot be backed up is just another baseless attack.
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After showing a very simple card trick.."Its a trick,but its the only trick you'll see tonight.These aren't magic tricks,this is mind control"
Then he proceeded to do various tricks for the entire programme!
Unless he LIED, and used either a stooge, or some form of advnaced technology, the drawings made by the other "psychic" had to have been the result of psyhological persuasion. Actually, anyone who can watch that episode, note the language he uses, prior a picture being drawn ("okay, lets 'sail' over to the next drawing").
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My bold emphasis.Exactly what he probably did use.There are props that can achieve this.
Unless the people sorrounding him, or the woman making the drawings in the other room, were in on it with him, then he did use psychological persuasion.
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No he didnt.
Also, I have studied the Messiah, and in the circumstances he was in, tradtitional mentalist techniques would be very difficult to utilize (beyond cold reading).
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State some facts for this baseless statements.
 
evilvlad said:
This is part of my issue with the accusations flying at Mr. Brown. Many of them have absolutely no basis, said by people who did not even see the program. Unless the people sorrounding him, or the woman making the drawings in the other room, were in on it with him, then he did use psychological persuasion.


Please provide a proper source. Making a statement that cannot be backed up is just another baseless attack.


Another baseless accusation. In the program, Derren Brown clearly stated that he told them to have their guns with them, for the "motivational" factor. People look to bring the man down, prior to even thinking things through, or analyzing the situation.

Unless, again, he blatantly lies to us, and hires stooges and actors, then please don't look to bring someone down with your own lies and speculations. Derren Brown is a very popular figure in Brittain right now; if he was found to be a complete liar then the press would have a field day, and his career would be ruined.


You make it seem like it's easy...let's see someone replicate that.
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How on earth could provide sources for a guy doing an effect on the TV that I do myself? It's not a scientific claim, it's an observation. You either take my word for it or you don't. It's a simple effect. The short stack ensure that no matter what decision they make, they will lose. I could describe the trick but the rules state no disclosure. Google it and ye shall find.

He also did a version of Paul Curry's Out of this World in a dead/alive effect on one of his specials using photos of people who were supposedly dead or living. Any competent magician knows this effect and all who saw it spotted it. All also agreed that it was an INSPIRED use of the principle.

I also have read the original Pure Effect book which describes two effects using the dual reality principle to achieve supposedly psychological effects. He took these effects out of later editions because he still uses forms of the same effects. I have also seen his London Lecture tape where he does the same thing.

He does blatently lie. This is not a baseless accusation. I like Derren Brown a lot. I love what he does and admire him immensely. I particularly admire the way he has taken his own advice given in his 2nd book: Absolute Magic and used it to great effect - he has take magic seriously and given the audience a context they can relate to. 100 years ago that might have been supernature, nowadays he picked pop psychology. He cleverly weaves genuine psychological principles are pioneered by Banachek et al with good old fashioned magic and mentalism to produce a 3rd Way which is now being copied wholesale.

He lies for a living. It's not a criticism, he's a magician for god's sake! He was found to be lying quite heavily in the Russian Roulette special when the police stated that no live ammunition was used. As if he'd really put a loaded gun to his head without being 100% sure what would happen when he pulled the trigger!

I can only assume you are not a magician?
 
Any competent magician knows this effect and all who saw it spotted it. All also agreed that it was an INSPIRED use of the principle.
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And the INSPIRED edit of the "move" :D
 
Very true!

But I think it was a fair edit. If he used the same sort of move he uses in his OOTW on the Devil's Picturebook video then relies on misdirection. You can't misdirect someone very well in a TV picture. So we saw the effect as he would have seen it which seems fair game to me.
 
But I think it was a fair edit. If he used the same sort of move he uses in his OOTW on the Devil's Picturebook video then relies on misdirection. You can't misdirect someone very well in a TV picture. So we saw the effect as he would have seen it which seems fair game to me.
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I'd agree. There can be a fine line between an edit and a camera trick, but it's very common for magicians on TV to use the camera to make up for the lack of misdirection that would be available with a live audience. I don't think this is much different than a stage magician limiting the view by not allowing spectators to seat at the rear of the stage.
 
I just received DVDs of "The Heist" and "The Gathering", courtesy of our very own and very generous Azrael 5. He had previously sent me a DVD of "Seance."

I've only watched them each through once without going back to study, so I'll only make quick comments until I get a chance for extended review:

For "The Gathering": Assuming that DB was telling the truth with his comments about no pre-show work and no stooges, etc, I know how must of his stuff can be done. For most, I actually do know; for a couple, I can make very educated guesses.

The only thing with which I'm struggling is the finale with the cabby and the random route/destination. I can think of one involving pre-show work and one that does not but which is very iffy and which I need to review it before saying it's really possible. And, frankly, I feel I'm just wildly guessing...

Therefore, he has powers beyond us all.

Ahem.

For "The Heist": I honestly don't know what to make of this. I know that people can be easily persuaded to shoplift minor things. Don't ask me how; I won't tell.

But the step of committing a robbery with a toy gun? That's a stretch. I'm tempted to call shenanigans, but given my lack of trust in humanity, I'd be afraid to do that.

An important aside, though: In recreating the Milgram experiment, didn't DB violate some ethical protocols within the psychological community? As I recall, the psychological trauma of Milgram's subjects was so great that there was an ethical prohibition against repeating it.

I am not a psychologist, though, so I may be mistaken. And if I'm not mistaken, I suppose psychologists can't be expected to conduct ethical reviews of magic shows...

Oh, well.

My take: DB has great talent, but his greatest asset is his presentation. Without his entertaining yet confident and comforting style, he would be only one among many talented yet middling performers.
 
Well yes obviously. Mentalism is 99% performance. That's why he's miles better than most.

He's also a cracking close-up card man.
 
Hi all--I also benefited from Azrael's generosity as he sent me "Seance" and "Messiah" since I can't seem to get these things otherwise in the US. And I also got to see some really wonderful and amusing British commercials. My kid likes them better than the show, sometimes.

I think this discussion has zeroed in on some things I was thinking right off the bat, the moral/ethical issues involved in a profession that involves deception. Lawyers are in the same area, it seems to me. On the one hand one must argue "I am innocent" while still saying "With sufficient evidence you may find me guilty." We don't seem to be bothered by an utterly honest man who enters this arena and argues for the innocence of an utterly guilty one. What matters are the rules of the game.

Milgram's experiments are no longer feasible for a researcher expecting publication or funding from the mainstream. The issue as I see it is "informed consent" and the potential for harm to the unwitting subject. Any and all research, even involving questionnaires in the US universities are subject to IRB (Institutional Review Board) review, an national standard for such things. Deception in psychological studies must be accompanied by debriefing, and the subject must know that they are part of a study and are free to disengage at any time. They must know what will happen to the data generated, and be assured of confidentiality.

This might have a parallel with a disclosure or release signed by people on entertainment programs, but I doubt there is an IRB rigor applied to this. And as "reality TV" teaches, people will do anything to be on TV. I wonder what the release form for Fear Factor looks like.

Azrael- I'll be bugging you for more video!
 
Good afternoon Azrael 5
Azrael 5 said:
Im going to open a shop!! :D
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Then I will no doubt be one of your customers as well. Yuo were kind enough to send me some DB stuff in the past and would love to get more if you find the time. As you have heard, we do not get to see him in the States.
I've been working on putting together a seance for quite some time, and the DB DVD you sent me was great motivation for this.
Rest assured, the people who attend my seance will hopefully understand at the end that no actuall spirit contact was required for what they experinced, yet nothing needs to be exposed.
JPK
 
I know I'm late to this thread, but I just saw the "Seance" program a few hours ago, and was thrilled.

DB is a thorough professional, IMO.

Anyone seeing the program would have come away with their knowledge enhanced enough to think twice before falling for the con artists out there.

M.
 
Moochie said:
I know I'm late to this thread, but I just saw the "Seance" program a few hours ago, and was thrilled.

DB is a thorough professional, IMO.

Anyone seeing the program would have come away with their knowledge enhanced enough to think twice before falling for the con artists out there.

M.
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Did you spot the missing 2.6 seconds...?:)
 
What are the best mentalists UK doing now? Are they getting acts on TV? Azrael knows all and tells all. I don't have cable US so can't even watch. From what I hear Crissss Angellll is rather creepy, doesn't really ring with the normals.
 
Criss Angel uses camera tricks and stooges and isn't taken seriously over here BP,as for UK mentalists,there aren't any others on TV in UK.Sadly.
 
Derren Brown is a genius...I saw him live a while ago and he is amazing..such a fantastic prescense on stage and blows all psychic nonsense out of the water
 
I agree, PrincessPoppy. Derren is about the best of the best when it comes to what he does, at the moment, in this genre of entertainment. Power and Love to Derren for holding the torch.

My sad question is a real challenge... who will take it all to the next level? Where is our Dai Vernon? (not me, but wishing)
 
I just went to "Ian Rowland" website, Randi linked it as Jamy Ian Swiss. I must be totally unaware of things. He said:

"I recently saw three great shows in the space of one week, which made me feel rather lucky. I saw Derren Brown's show, 'Something Wicked This Way Comes', in the heart of London's West End. It was actually my second visit to the show. I think it's the greatest piece of mentalism theatre anyone had ever staged, anywhere, and it will be very hard for Derren, Andy Nyman and the rest of the team to top this incredible achievement. Congratulations to all concerned. If you are in the UK and have a chance to see this show - go and see it!"

Who is Andy Nyman? What are the rest of the team doing? Why does Derren need a team? Why aren't they on US TV? Why not a US tour?
Where is my dose of good clean fun?

(Took a deep breath, OK, I'm over it)
 
Andy Nyman designs some of Derren's tricks. I'm tempted to say most of his tricks, but I'm not sure about that,


Nobody seems to have mentioned the Gathering when he did his theatre show on tv with various celebrity guests. There was some impressive stuff there. The whole A-Z thing, making people forget the show, the money envelope malarky and a surprise ending.
 
Thanks, Jim--in the off hour I did a simple look and found Andy's website and indeed it appears that "something wicked" is afoot when he's around. Wow, more than ever I would love to be able to see some of these live events.

I was in the DC area when Ricky Jay did his "52 friends" show but somehow never even heard about it. It was in a small place and although it was probably sold out to the "knowers" I'm now bummed out. I would have paid the $75, for sure. It makes me sad that these geniuses aren't easily able to joyfully exercise their craft in the most gratifying venues anymore. They have to go to TV, media, to get attention worthy of their time and effort.

That's what I mean by good clean fun, a great live magic show. Heck, maybe someone that just redid a Kellar or Thurston show could make a $ completely on the novelty of it.
 
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