Derren Brown
- Thread starter teacher
- Start date
-
- Tags
- derren brown
davidhorman
Muse
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2001
- Messages
- 991
I don't think this has been brought up in this thread, but this article is pretty much how I feel about him - interesting bit about the poker trick.
Derren's on TV right now, by the way, with another special. This time he's going to persuade a businessperson to partake in what they think is a real armed robbery.
ETA: My mistake. He's actually (apparently) persuading four of them (one at a time) to initiate the robbery by themselves.
David
Derren's on TV right now, by the way, with another special. This time he's going to persuade a businessperson to partake in what they think is a real armed robbery.
ETA: My mistake. He's actually (apparently) persuading four of them (one at a time) to initiate the robbery by themselves.
David
Last edited:
I read the article and began by thinking: What's the problem? Derren is only claiming psychological effects within the framework of his show.
Further reading, however, indicated that he claims purely psychological manipulation outside that framework.
Assuming the article is correct, and assuming a lack of contradictory data,
I may have to begin rethinking whether I approve.
---
It occurs to me, though, that this is a method around the skeptics' dilemma regarding the successful demonstration of cold reading as it preys too much on the sitter.
Could a skeptic not conduct a cold reading dressed up as psychological manipulation and detection? It seems he could achieve the same results (or at least nearly the same results) as if he presented himself as a medium/psychic but could simultaneously avoid the gut-wrenching emotions associated with some sitters.
At the end, the magician could reveal that everything was simple tricks and would risk nothing more than bruised egos.
Further reading, however, indicated that he claims purely psychological manipulation outside that framework.
Assuming the article is correct, and assuming a lack of contradictory data,
I may have to begin rethinking whether I approve.
---
It occurs to me, though, that this is a method around the skeptics' dilemma regarding the successful demonstration of cold reading as it preys too much on the sitter.
Could a skeptic not conduct a cold reading dressed up as psychological manipulation and detection? It seems he could achieve the same results (or at least nearly the same results) as if he presented himself as a medium/psychic but could simultaneously avoid the gut-wrenching emotions associated with some sitters.
At the end, the magician could reveal that everything was simple tricks and would risk nothing more than bruised egos.
Claus, I'm not sure if you're equating Ian to the "Presents Magic as Psychology" bit or "Has Done Cold Reading" bit.
If the former, I don't know if he has or not, but I'll take your word for it; if he admitted it afterwards, then there is no comparison with the representation of Derren in the article.
If the latter, I know about it and have referred to it when speaking with believers. However, it is one of very few examples. One reason that people on this forum (including me) have given for the lack of more examples is the moral repugnance a la the Paltalk readings of some posters here. At least one poster (can't recall his name) has said he had to stop giving the reading because of the increasingly emotional reaction and attachment of the sitter.
If the former, I don't know if he has or not, but I'll take your word for it; if he admitted it afterwards, then there is no comparison with the representation of Derren in the article.
If the latter, I know about it and have referred to it when speaking with believers. However, it is one of very few examples. One reason that people on this forum (including me) have given for the lack of more examples is the moral repugnance a la the Paltalk readings of some posters here. At least one poster (can't recall his name) has said he had to stop giving the reading because of the increasingly emotional reaction and attachment of the sitter.
Azrael 5
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2003
- Messages
- 6,106
Oh Simon Singh! Just a magician party pooper In my opinion.I agree with Garette,its just within the framework of his programme,he did sail fairly close to the wind when he started out,and that article did make him change his stance.He started admitting to using magic techniques.But a lot of fuss over nothing IMO.
That's a relief. If correct, I throw my support back behind Derren.Azrael 5 said:
It is sometimes awful living in the States and not getting the chance to see some of this stuff. Besides owning Derren's books and having visitied his website, my only exposure to him was his Seance show which Az was kind enough to send me a copy of. A favor I've yet to repay.
Dragon
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,639
Only 3 of the 4 actually went through with the robbery. The 4th guy seemed to think about it but walked on past the security guard. I thought I saw him smile as he did so - perhaps he worked it out?
NeilC
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,347
That's what I thought too. You could tell that he recognised something.
It's a bit depressing to think people can be that easily manipulated into doing what they think it a crime and something that is essentially a terrifying ordeal for a security guard.
It's a bit depressing to think people can be that easily manipulated into doing what they think it a crime and something that is essentially a terrifying ordeal for a security guard.
All those who claim that Derren uses mostly magic, please answer this; in the Heist, there is no traditional magical eplanation as to how he achieved the results. I've studied both mentalism and magic for QUITE some time now, and know that, without stooges, what he did HAD to be the result of genuine psychological persuasion.
Also, I have studied the Messiah, and in the circumstances he was in, tradtitional mentalist techniques would be very difficult to utilize (beyond cold reading).
Example: The "remote viewing". There was just no pheasable way for him to have used something like an impression pad. Unless he LIED, and used either a stooge, or some form of advnaced technology, the drawings made by the other "psychic" had to have been the result of psyhological persuasion. Actually, anyone who can watch that episode, note the language he uses, prior a picture being drawn ("okay, lets 'sail' over to the next drawing").
Another example is his heavy use of hypnosis. Hypnosis is a direct phenominon of psychological persuasion. In the Messiah, Derren causes a group of atheists to simultaniously fall onto their chairs, and instantly repent their prior herecy. If what he used was magic, then I have A LOT to learn (having already corresponded with some profound Magicians in the community, and devoted countless hours of my life studying every detail possible of the performance art).
I'd love to hear some responses.
EDIT -- Just as an added thought, I do fully understand that he uses magical techniques to achieve certain effects. People should not be surprised by that, considering that at the start of virtually every show, he states; "This program fuses magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. I achieve the results you will see through a varied mixture of those techniques." What's with the sudden surprise that he utilizes magical techniques??
Another point I find interesting, is when people say things such as "he's 75% magic, and 25% psychology". Unless there's a concrete basis for such statements, they're just pulling senseless numbers out of their a--es.
Also, I have studied the Messiah, and in the circumstances he was in, tradtitional mentalist techniques would be very difficult to utilize (beyond cold reading).
Example: The "remote viewing". There was just no pheasable way for him to have used something like an impression pad. Unless he LIED, and used either a stooge, or some form of advnaced technology, the drawings made by the other "psychic" had to have been the result of psyhological persuasion. Actually, anyone who can watch that episode, note the language he uses, prior a picture being drawn ("okay, lets 'sail' over to the next drawing").
Another example is his heavy use of hypnosis. Hypnosis is a direct phenominon of psychological persuasion. In the Messiah, Derren causes a group of atheists to simultaniously fall onto their chairs, and instantly repent their prior herecy. If what he used was magic, then I have A LOT to learn (having already corresponded with some profound Magicians in the community, and devoted countless hours of my life studying every detail possible of the performance art).
I'd love to hear some responses.
EDIT -- Just as an added thought, I do fully understand that he uses magical techniques to achieve certain effects. People should not be surprised by that, considering that at the start of virtually every show, he states; "This program fuses magic, suggestion, psychology, misdirection and showmanship. I achieve the results you will see through a varied mixture of those techniques." What's with the sudden surprise that he utilizes magical techniques??
Another point I find interesting, is when people say things such as "he's 75% magic, and 25% psychology". Unless there's a concrete basis for such statements, they're just pulling senseless numbers out of their a--es.
Last edited:
mummymonkey
Did you spill my pint?
Misdirection?
I'm not sure about exactly what you are referring to. Please elaborate?
If you mean the method in which he knew what she would draw, you obviously did not watch the special.
NeilC
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2005
- Messages
- 1,347
What meams by misdirection is that he pretends to use psychology when he is just using a peek or similar. It's quite possible.
Remember that on TV shows you rarely see the whole thing. They often cut out the bit where the magi asked them to write it on a bit of paper etc.
On The Heist, it is POSSIBLE that what we saw was only half the story. He could have been lying. He has lied before. In fact he lied on his first ever show if I remember rightly. He said no magic was being used but then did the old poker deal trick where he appears to out guess the opponents time after time. The effect is known by me and many others and uses a stack. He presented it better than I've ever seen it done before. But he was lying. I don't care personally because it's entertainment, not a political discussion.
It's possible that more direct hypnosis was going on, or more direct instruction. Or a dual reality set up.
The fact that all the people had their guns in their waistbands was very odd. Something must have been said to them that we didn't hear.
On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if it is possible to weed out a few 100 people down to a 3-4 and get them to do such things in the way he said.
Who knows?
Remember that on TV shows you rarely see the whole thing. They often cut out the bit where the magi asked them to write it on a bit of paper etc.
On The Heist, it is POSSIBLE that what we saw was only half the story. He could have been lying. He has lied before. In fact he lied on his first ever show if I remember rightly. He said no magic was being used but then did the old poker deal trick where he appears to out guess the opponents time after time. The effect is known by me and many others and uses a stack. He presented it better than I've ever seen it done before. But he was lying. I don't care personally because it's entertainment, not a political discussion.
It's possible that more direct hypnosis was going on, or more direct instruction. Or a dual reality set up.
The fact that all the people had their guns in their waistbands was very odd. Something must have been said to them that we didn't hear.
On the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if it is possible to weed out a few 100 people down to a 3-4 and get them to do such things in the way he said.
Who knows?
This is part of my issue with the accusations flying at Mr. Brown. Many of them have absolutely no basis, said by people who did not even see the program. Unless the people sorrounding him, or the woman making the drawings in the other room, were in on it with him, then he did use psychological persuasion.
Please provide a proper source. Making a statement that cannot be backed up is just another baseless attack.
Another baseless accusation. In the program, Derren Brown clearly stated that he told them to have their guns with them, for the "motivational" factor. People look to bring the man down, prior to even thinking things through, or analyzing the situation.
Unless, again, he blatantly lies to us, and hires stooges and actors, then please don't look to bring someone down with your own lies and speculations. Derren Brown is a very popular figure in Brittain right now; if he was found to be a complete liar then the press would have a field day, and his career would be ruined.
You make it seem like it's easy...let's see someone replicate that.
Hi guys - I haven't posted on the forum for AGES - but discussion of Derren Brown is sure to draw me back out of the woodwork!
I think the Heist was amazing entertainment - if slightly worrying that 'ordinary people' could be so conditioned in so short a time. I'd like to think it would not have worked on me (!) possibly because of my interest in the subject - eg, I spotted the visual forces and (being a writer) his use of language would have seemed rather obvious. However, who knows really how one might react in such a situation. How much is dependant on the power of group dynamic and perceived peer pressure...? Fascinating stuff...
I noted that the young chap who did not go through with the Heist, smiled as he walked past the van - I do think he twigged it. Did anyone else notice that the car playing the music passed him rather too quickly - probably a mistake - I wondered if that was why he resisted the alleged 'conditioning.'
Although I enjoyed the show, I do hope that Derren does not eschew all 'magical' content in future. The blend of traditional magic with his talents was just right (IMHO) in previous shows like 'Messiah' and 'Seance'... In short, I hope he does not lose his "Sense of Wonder" quotient - so essential to both magicians and us humble Fantasy authors! ;-)
Nice to be back!
DeVega
I think the Heist was amazing entertainment - if slightly worrying that 'ordinary people' could be so conditioned in so short a time. I'd like to think it would not have worked on me (!) possibly because of my interest in the subject - eg, I spotted the visual forces and (being a writer) his use of language would have seemed rather obvious. However, who knows really how one might react in such a situation. How much is dependant on the power of group dynamic and perceived peer pressure...? Fascinating stuff...
I noted that the young chap who did not go through with the Heist, smiled as he walked past the van - I do think he twigged it. Did anyone else notice that the car playing the music passed him rather too quickly - probably a mistake - I wondered if that was why he resisted the alleged 'conditioning.'
Although I enjoyed the show, I do hope that Derren does not eschew all 'magical' content in future. The blend of traditional magic with his talents was just right (IMHO) in previous shows like 'Messiah' and 'Seance'... In short, I hope he does not lose his "Sense of Wonder" quotient - so essential to both magicians and us humble Fantasy authors! ;-)
Nice to be back!
DeVega