Denmark: Autism-MMR link back?

Well I always get confused between vaccines and immunisations, so this might be an entirely fallacious point I'm going to mangle up;

Vaccines are deactivated versions of the virus, or something similar to it. Enough for the bodies own immune system to see the newcomer as a bady and respond to it by developing a defensive mechanism. Thus when the real virus is encountered the body already has the right immunities in its arsenal.

I suppose the particular anti-vax woos you're quoting have extrapolated that into thinking the deactivated virus can be contagious and they might be able to get their kids 'infected with it for free without going through any of the nasty injection/thimersol stuff.

Sounds a pretty remote chance, if I've interpreted it right. And I bet their explanation would contain the words 'Aura', 'Energy flow' and 'Natural'.

In any case, a lot of anti-vax theory seems to think the deactivated virus itself is harmful. Didn't Wakefield talk about the Measles on being in some way behind some bowel disorder?
 
Eos of the Eons said:
I know several people that believe that vaccines cause the disease, and that vaccines "shed". Thus, they figure exposing their kids to "freshly vaccinated" ones will spread the vaccine to them "naturally". They really have no idea how vaccines work, but somebody told them this, and so it must be true.
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There's a grain of truth in it. Some live-attenuated vaccines, at least in the past, did this. The vaccine virus would actually multiply in the body and be excreted. There was a vaccine for canine adenovirus (Rubarth's disease or Infectious Canine Hepatitis) that did this - my senior partner used to say that you only had to vaccinate a handful of dogs in the neighbourhood and the whole lot would become seropositive.

But I don't even know if any of the modern attenuated vaccines do it, and we seem to be going more and more towards few-antigen subunit vaccines which are of course never going to replicate in the body, so basically with respect to most (if not all) modern vaccines, they're simply wrong.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
There's a grain of truth in it. Some live-attenuated vaccines, at least in the past, did this. The vaccine virus would actually multiply in the body and be excreted. There was a vaccine for canine adenovirus (Rubarth's disease or Infectious Canine Hepatitis) that did this - my senior partner used to say that you only had to vaccinate a handful of dogs in the neighbourhood and the whole lot would become seropositive.
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Would that be anything to do with canine habits of sniffing each others' rear ends and closely inspecting piles of dog poo, perchance?
 
There are inactivated viruses (polio) and attenuated viruses (MMR). The former are not transmissable but the latter are, theoretically. It depends on what the attenuation has done; most attenuate the virus by knocking out virulence factors but the ability to infect a cell and replicate are usually intact. I don't know enough about the MMR to give you more information. However, it is possible to catch live wild type polio from a soiled nappy of a recently vaccinated child that has received the oral polio vaccine. This is because the virus is attenuated by a single point mutation and that readily reverts to the wild type in the host's gut.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2986004

Ha! Rolfe beat me to it.
 
Capsid said:
However, it is possible to catch live wild type polio from a soiled nappy of a recently vaccinated child that has received the oral polio vaccine.
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Of course, the chances of catching polio this way are hugely reduced if the person changing the nappy has been properly vaccinated.

Fortunately, in New Zealand at least, we now use the inactivated version of the polio vaccine which doesn't have this problem. In 1998 in New Zealand there were two cases of VAPP (vaccine associated paralytic poliomyelitis).

OPV is still used in developing countries simply because it is cheaper and, I understand, more effective.

It has been estimated in the USA to be one case of VAPP per 2.4 million doses of OPV distributed.The risk is higher after the first dose of vaccine and estimated to be one case of VAPP for every 750,000 children vaccinated (CDC .1997.Poliomyelitis prevention in the US....MMWR 46(RR3):1 –25.)
 
I very much doubt that vaccines are causing autism, as least to a significant amount, but it's also a possibility that WHEN the vaccine is given could be a factor, right?
 
My daughter had her Meningitis C and MMR jabs yesterday. Parents are filled with unnecessary worry already (as I can testify) without data dredges (and that's what the Denmark study is) and junk science making it all a lot worse.

BTW she's had no real reaction to the meningitis jab (which might have caused a fever in the first 24 hours but didn't) and the MMR if causes anything at all (a mild rash) 7-10 days after.

I would recommend John Bagnell's book "The Epidemiologists" on all of this. You can buy it through the link at www.numberwatch.co.uk
 
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