Deeper than primes

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No, the source of thoughts is non-local w.r.t any collection of thoughts and you get this simple fact at the moment that you are able to use direct-perception.

Again you demonstrate how anything is translated by you to Locality, exactly because your reasoning is limited to the level of thoughts.

That “the nature of thoughts” is “locality” was your assertion.

The source of thoughts is the non-personal and non-local state that exists at the basis of any collection of local things (abstract or not). Again you demonstrate your inability to get this fact, because your awareness is closed under Locality and so is your reasoning.

So you think your thoughs come from someone or somewhere elese?

J.R.R Tolkien invented a Hobbit, which is totally different than defining things.

How did he ‘invent a Hobbit’ if not by or without defining it?

Defining things determines the limitations of already existing things in order to use them for our propose.

So a Hobbit must have existed before it was defined.

Inventing things is using our imagination in order to create X out of non-existence.

So one can ’invent things’ by defining something “out of non-existence”.

You have missed the point here.

No you have

The empty set must exist independently of its definition in order to be one of the sets that are not its members. If definition = invention then the empty set cannot be one of the sets that do not belong to the empty set because definition=invention invents the empty set and in that case it can’t be one of the sets that do not belong to it.

Simply nonsense, anything that is invented by its definition only ‘exists’ as its definition. If it ’existed’ before that definition or independently of that definition then it was not invented by that definition. By your assertions anything that is not a member of a particular set must “exist” in order not to be a member of that set. Therefore the empty set invents everything since it has no members and there is no such thing as “non-existence” as you asserted before. Because even things that do not yet “exist” (as a definition or otherwise) are not a member of the empty set and must therefore “exist” (by your assertion) in order not to be a member of the empty set. Just your usual self contradictory nonsense.


In other words, if X is invented then X can’t be used as one of the elements that determine the properties of X, because then we are using a circular reasoning.

No that is just “Inventing things” “using our imagination in order to create X out of non-existence” by defining X. Nothing circular about it, but it does completely refute your assertions that “Defining things determines the limitations of already existing things in order to use them for our propose.”




No, your local-only reasoning is naive because it can’t deal with real complexity.

Your reasoning and notions are specifically naïve until you can rigorously define things like “real complexity” and show that such a thing can “exist” as even just a self consistent definition.

Entropy happens only in closed systems where things are at energetic equilibrium such that no flow of energy can be found in that closed system.


Things are changed if the system is opened to income of new energy.

“energy flow” can be found in closed systems, the only thing that makes a system closed is that energy does not ‘flow’ into or out of that system, it can still ‘flow’ within the system, the difference is rather significant. Entropy can also increase or decrease in an open system, but will only increase in a closed system, again the difference is rather significant.

The inability of 0-dim elements to completely cover a 1-dim element is a model of an open system, where there is always a room for new locations and as a result such a system is naturally opened and therefore non-entropic by nature.

For more details please see this old stuff:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/LPD.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/Eventors.pdf

I may correct some of it, but the main idea is there.

Again your inability to show that “0-dim elements” cannot “completely cover a 1-dim element” make your assertions meaningless as well as the fact that open systems have entropy.

Here you are using again you local-only reasoning, which prevents from you to understand the universe as an open system that is the result of the linkage between Non-locality and Locality.

For exaple, you can't get http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5018555&postcount=5840.

Allso you can't get http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5037911&postcount=5899.


Direct perception is the right way to get the existence of things. Direct perception is the source of definitions, and not vice versa.

You have already asserted that “Inventing things is using our imagination in order to create X out of non-existence” thus things can be invented “out of non-existence” by simply defining them. Since by your own assertions “non-existence” does not preclude “Inventing things” like just a definition and your “Direct perception” relates only to “already existing things” the definition “in order to create X out of non-existence” must precede your “Direct perception” of that “existence” which is only its definition. Your claim about the ability to “create X out of non-existence” completely refutes your claim that “Direct perception is the source of definitions”
 
The Man said:
Simply nonsense, anything that is invented by its definition only ‘exists’ as its definition. If it ’existed’ before that definition or independently of that definition then it was not invented by that definition. By your assertions anything that is not a member of a particular set must “exist” in order not to be a member of that set. Therefore the empty set invents everything since it has no members and there is no such thing as “non-existence” as you asserted before. Because even things that do not yet “exist” (as a definition or otherwise) are not a member of the empty set and must therefore “exist” (by your assertion) in order not to be a member of the empty set. Just your usual self contradictory nonsense.
If the empty-set is not one of the members that do not belong to the empty set, then this particular case is not covered by the definition of the empty set.

As a result {{}} and {} are both valid cases that are based on the definition of the empty set, and we get a contradiction. In order to avoid that contradiction the empty set must exists as one of the sets that are not the members of the empty set, and we learn that Definitions do not create the defined things and all they do is to describe the properties of already existing things. Once again your abstraction inability is clearly shown.

The Man said:
... and your “Direct perception” relates only to “already existing things” ...
Wrong.

Since Direct perception starts at the source of thoughts, then new thoughts are created and then described by definitions. Definitions only describe the existing thoughts where Direct perception creates them.

Since you are not aware of the source of your thoughts, which is not itself a thought, you can’t get Direct perception, and all your reasoning is based on describing already existing thoughts.

As a result your reasoning is closed under Locality.

The Man said:
it can still ‘flow’ within the system,
So what. It becomes useful only if it is relevant to Complexity’s development and no development can be found in closed systems.

For example: closed systems like you can't get http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php...postcount=5840.
 
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Second time asking: Is there a vaild reason why you are avoiding my posts?
The Man said:
If a line is made up of points,
A line is not made up of points, exactly as a plane is not made up of lines , etc... ad infinitum.

Since this is the case, our system is the result of the linkage between Locality and Non-locality.
 
The Man said:
That “the nature of thoughts” is “locality” was your assertion.
Any collection (of abstract things or not) is based on finitely or infinitely many things, where each one of them is local, such that each local thing can be common XOR non-common with respect to any other thing.

On the contrary the source of thoughts, which is not a thought, can be common AND non-common with respects to any given thought, which is a property that no thought has with respect to any other thought (a thought can be common XOR non-common with respect to any other thought).

This simple and straightforward notion is clearly demonstrated by http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5130111&postcount=5994 which can’t be grasped by your limited local-only reasoning.

The Man said:
Defined by does not mean “made of”, but it does mean that the definition of a line segment is not independent from a definition of those defining points. Likewise that a line segment is defined by points does not limit the properties of a line segment to those of a point.
If X is not made of Y then X existence is independent of Y. It does not mean that these independent existences can’t be used as building-blocks of some complex that has the combined properties of both biding-blocks such that the unique property of each building-block is not totally eliminated by the other buiding-block.

For example: 0.999... < 1 exactly because its non-local property is not totally eliminated by its local property, as clearly shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5018555&postcount=5840.

The Man said:
“energy flow” can be found in closed systems
Since it is found by measuring the “energy flow”, then that system is not totally closed.
 
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Show me somewhere on a line where there isn't a point.
Show me a point that is located AND not located in a given location, which is a property that any line has (it is both located AND not-located with respect to the location of a given point).

As a result for any given location of some point there is a line that is located AND not-located at that location, and this state is invariant upon infinitely many scales.

Therefore 0.999... + 0.000...1 = 1.000... , where the "...1" of the expression "0.000...1" represents the permanent co-existence of Non-Locality together with Locality in an element like the non-local number 0.999...

Exactly because of this permanent co-existence there are "9" along the expression "0.999..." where no "9" is a final location of that expression.
 
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Show me a point that is located AND not located in a given location, which is a property that any line has (it is both locatend AND not-locatied with respect to the location of a given point).
What are you talking about? Why don't you answer the question, which was based on your statement?

Why do you think a line should be located at one point?


ETA: Do you think you could stop editing now, or make it clear what you are adding to your posts?
 
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Yes it does, because for any given point there is a line that is located AND not-located at that point, and this co-existence is invariant upon infinitely many scales as clearly shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5018555&postcount=5840.

You seem to be approaching this backwards. For any point there may be an infinite number of lines passing through it. That is irrelevant.

You said:
A line is not made up of points, exactly as a plane is not made up of lines , etc... ad infinitum.

We've been over this many times. As usual, your words are unclear. By "made up of", do you mean:

1) A line is created by assembling or identifying all the points that lie along it

or

2) a line passes through all the points between its two end points, and there are no gaps between points?

1) is clearly wrong, and 2) is clearly true. So, what do you mean to convey when you make the statement:
A line is not made up of points, exactly as a plane is not made up of lines , etc... ad infinitum.
 
zooterkin said:
You seem to be approaching this backwards. For any point there may be an infinite number of lines passing through it.
No, Whet I said is that along 0.999... for any “9” that represents an exact location there is “+” that is located AND not-located at that “9”.

Actually 0.999... is the result of the co-existence of Locality (represented by “9”s) and Non-locality (represented by “+”s) along the real-line and as a result 0.999... < 1 by 0.000...1, where ...1 represents Non-locality that is in a co-existence with the “9”s that represents only the local aspect of the non-local number 0.999...

The right representation that does not ignores the co-existence of Locality AND Non-locality along non-local numbers is accurately explained and shown in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5018555&postcount=5840.

zooterkin said:
2) a line passes through all the points between its two end points, and there are no gaps between points?
2) is clearly true.
(2) is clearly wrong exactly because no point between any given arbitrary points is a final point of the given collection of the infinitely many points exactly because there is a permanent co-existence between localities and non-localities along the real-line, which actually enables the unique existence of each locality.

Without the existence of non-localities along the real-line, the real-line is actually a single locality, and only in that case there are no gaps but also there is no real-line.
 
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Useful how? Give one practical example.

We get a naturally open system where no amount of localities can totally cover non-locality.

So there is permanently a room for new income that permanently prevents the maximum entropy of the realm which is the result of Non-locality\Locality Linkage.
 
No, Whet I said the along 0.999.. for any “9” that represents an exact location there is “+” that is located AND not-located at that “9”.

Actually 0.999... is the result of co-existence of Locality (represented by “9”s) and Non-locality (represented by “+”s) along the real-line and as a result 0.999... < 1 by 0.000...1, where ...1 represents Non-locality that is in a co-existence with the “9”s that represents only the local aspect of the non-local number 0.999...
No, you got me. I really have no idea what this jumble of words is supposed to mean, nor how it is relevant to the points I was making.

A point is either on a given line, or it is not. There is nowhere on a line that does not correspond to a point.

(2) is clearly wrong exactly because no point between any given arbitrary points is a final point of the given collection of the infinitely many points exactly because there is a permanent co-existence between localities and non-localities along the real-line, which actually enables the unique existence of each locality.
What do you mean by 'final point'? Do you understand what 'infinite' means?
 
zooterkin said:
A point is either on a given line, or it is not.
Exactly, that’s why a point is local w.r.t a line (it is on XOR not on the line).

On the contrary a line can be on AND not-on a given point (it is non-local w.r.t the point).

zooterkin said:
There is nowhere on a line that does not correspond to a point.
Exactly, the points (localities) and lines (non-localities) are in co-existence along the real-line (no one of them eliminates the existence of the other).

zooterkin said:
What do you mean by 'final point'? Do you understand what 'infinite' means?
In an infinite collection no distinct element is considered as the final element of that collection. As a result any infinite collection of distinct elements is incomplete (the term “all” is not satisfied).

The term “all” is satisfied only in the case of non-empty finite collection, where any given element can be considered as the final element of that collection.

But an infinite collection is only a potential infinity w.r.t Non-locality, where Non-locality is actual infinity that is notated as
 
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