Debunking Astrology besides newspapers Sun Signs

[Roboramma]

In the Vedas it says "that which is closest to the truth lasts longest," which certainly would include astrology, developed around 7,000 years ago.

Not that it matters much, but I'd like to see your evidence of this 7000 year old date.

For instance, wikipedia tells me of the history of astrology in India:

The earliest use of the term jyotiṣa is in the sense of a Vedanga, an auxiliary discipline of Vedic religion. The only work of this class to have survived is the Vedanga Jyotisha, which contains rules for tracking the motions of the sun and the moon in the context of a five-year intercalation cycle. The date of this work is uncertain, as its late style of language and composition, consistent with the last centuries BC, albeit pre-Mauryan, conflicts with some internal evidence of a much earlier date in the 2nd millennium BC.[68][69]

It also has this to say:

Babylonian astrology was the first organized system of astrology, arising in the 2nd millennium BC.[13] There is speculation that astrology of some form appeared in the Sumerian period in the 3rd millennium BC, but the isolated references to ancient celestial omens dated to this period are not considered sufficient evidence to demonstrate an integrated theory of astrology.[14] The history of scholarly celestial divination is therefore generally reported to begin with late Old Babylonian texts (c. 1800 BC), continuing through the Middle Babylonian and Middle Assyrian periods (c. 1200 BC).[15]

So between four and five thousand years old, maybe a thousand years older than that if the Sumerian claims are correct.

 

[Pixel42]

Raindancing is thousands of years old. So is animal sacrifice.

Saw one of those documentarry series a while back in which a hardy type goes backpacking to the parts of the world which tourists rarely visit. In one episode, in the Himalayas IIRC, he accompanied some villagers as they took a struggling goat to a high point and threw it into a deep ravine, to ensure a good harvest or something. The traveller remarked on how important it was that such ancient traditions were still preserved. The goat's opinion was not recorded.

 

[EHocking]

Raindancing is thousands of years old. So is animal sacrifice.

I was going to say, that at least with animal sacrifice you can predict a meal afterwards.

But I guess I was wrong (or I’ve been doing it wrong all these years)

Saw one of those documentarry series a while back in which a hardy type goes backpacking to the parts of the world which tourists rarely visit. In one episode, in the Himalayas IIRC, he accompanied some villagers as they took a struggling goat to a high point and threw it into a deep ravine, to ensure a good harvest or something. The traveller remarked on how important it was that such ancient traditions were still preserved. The goat's opinion was not recorded.

it couldn’t beleat it was happening to it.
I kid you not.

 

[theprestige]

Interesting to read the study. Just one study without any understanding of how they chose the astrologers or verified the birth times, it doesn't do much to move the needle, but interesting.

India is filled with bad astrologers and astrologers who cheat--I know this first hand. There was a famous Indian astrologer in southern CA who gave me a reading twice on the phone ($250 a pop) and he just wasn't any good, though he was popular. He got a few things right, but overall he was very poor. This represents a initial problem. Finding the right people to test. Had you picked this CA guy for testing you would have reached the wrong conclusion.

And THEN I noticed that the people running this study were from the Skeptical Inquirer and that the study was not published anywhere.

In fact, by your rules you can't cite this study because there was certainly no peer review or Journal publication---or does that rule your people throw at me all the time only count when it is to your advantage?

To cite the Skeptic Inquirer on a study on Vedic Astrology is ridiculous. Kinda like having Mahahishi M Yogi University in Iowa do a study on the ability of their meditation to produce world peace. I'm sure they would be very well intentioned, but you couldn't use that to make your point.

We agree on that, right?

Why is it so hard for proponents of astrology to come up with even a single scientific study that supports their proposition?

Proponents of 3D printing don't have this problem.

Or what about weather forecasts? Weather conditions are an important factor in military operations. Weather forecasting is a critical military task. Accurate weather forecasting is also notoriously difficult. Why don't military planners have astrologers on their meteorology staffs?

Why isn't astrologer a military occupation specialty, like helicopter pilot or intelligence analyst? Hell, I served as an intelligence analyst. Why weren't the basics of astrology part of my training?

Did you know it's common practice to build dossiers on enemy commanders, as an aid in trying to predict their actions? Did you know that it is not common practice to include astrological analysis in those dossiers?

 

[P.J. Denyer]

This is a fabulous point! Frank McLaughlin claims science only focuses on proving established ideas and cannot accept new ideas “such as astrology.” But it was astrology that was the established idea historically. It was science that eventually rigorously tested astrology and concluded it was bunk.

More over, compare the scientific understanding of 200 years ago that of today and it makes a mockery of the idea that science is hostile to new ideas. Science is hostile to unevidenced ideas.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Tell you what. I'll look into that education you speak of, if you'll look into how to right coherently so I can figure out what you are tying to say without reading three times.

"Write". Normally, I'd consider pointing that out to be petty, but, glass houses and stones.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Anyway, just to try to take Mr McLaughlin a bit more seriously...

Vedic astrology still relies on planetary positions at time of birth; still relies on those arbitrary and only in any way visible from here groupings of stars which have been labelled constellations, even though most of the stars are further from each other than from here; still relies on some mysterious and as yet unexplained and unmeasured by anything approaching science force or energy to have any effect; still hasn't provided consistent and testable predictions about anything much; still requires all manner of special pleading from its proponents...

That's different from "standard" astrology how?

And why should I give it any more credence?

 

[LongFuzzy]

Raindancing is thousands of years old. So is animal sacrifice.

Saw one of those documentarry series a while back in which a hardy type goes backpacking to the parts of the world which tourists rarely visit. In one episode, in the Himalayas IIRC, he accompanied some villagers as they took a struggling goat to a high point and threw it into a deep ravine, to ensure a good harvest or something. The traveller remarked on how important it was that such ancient traditions were still preserved. The goat's opinion was not recorded.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/ZuPA/spectrum-mobile-better-way-volcano-featuring-ellen-degeneres

For those that must know before clicking, Man sacrifices commercial.

 

[theprestige]

If any astrology of any type, Vedic, Sun Sign, or Moonshine, actually worked. Those who used it would become rich. The fact that "Frank McLaughlin" bothers to spend time posting here rather than flying around the World in his private 747, proves that it does not.

Anyway, just to try to take Mr McLaughlin a bit more seriously...

Vedic astrology still relies on planetary positions at time of birth; still relies on those arbitrary and only in any way visible from here groupings of stars which have been labelled constellations, even though most of the stars are further from each other than from here; still relies on some mysterious and as yet unexplained and unmeasured by anything approaching science force or energy to have any effect; still hasn't provided consistent and testable predictions about anything much; still requires all manner of special pleading from its proponents...

That's different from "standard" astrology how?

And why should I give it any more credence?

Well, it can't be gravity. We already know that when it comes to sun sign astrology, the gravitational influence of Jupiter is completely lost in the gravitational fluctuations from cars in the street outside the maternity ward.

Even if Vedic astrology worked, its effects would be overridden by sun sign astrology anyway.

 

[theprestige]

I was going to say, that at least with animal sacrifice you can predict a meal afterwards.

My impression is that cultures that take animal sacrifice seriously take the sacrifice part seriously. It's not a sacrifice if you get to eat it, too. The whole point is that you set aside part of your profit out of respect for a higher power whose good will you hope to influence. Telling god this goat is for him, and then eating it yourself... Do you want to get cursed? Because that's how you get cursed.

 

[wasapi]

What I have found recently when I look at those 'daily/monthly horoscopes', is amusing. For example; "Spend more time alone." "Remove yourself from your daily social interactions". "Instead of visiting, phone your loved ones".

It is as if astrologers are trying to be socially responsible? Yes, it amused me.

 

[EHocking]

My impression is that cultures that take animal sacrifice seriously take the sacrifice part seriously. It's not a sacrifice if you get to eat it, too. The whole point is that you set aside part of your profit out of respect for a higher power whose good will you hope to influence. Telling god this goat is for him, and then eating it yourself... Do you want to get cursed? Because that's how you get cursed.

Many cultures (I can’t really say most as I don’t know) do/did indeed eat the meat of sacrificed animals. The sharing of it within the community is just as important to them as the ritual of the sacrifice itself.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Telling god this goat is for him, and then eating it yourself... Do you want to get cursed? Because that's how you get cursed.That's the Priest's job

FTFY

 

[Roboramma]

My impression is that cultures that take animal sacrifice seriously take the sacrifice part seriously. It's not a sacrifice if you get to eat it, too. The whole point is that you set aside part of your profit out of respect for a higher power whose good will you hope to influence. Telling god this goat is for him, and then eating it yourself... Do you want to get cursed? Because that's how you get cursed.

An interesting little tidbit: in China you still see ancestor worship and people will burn things as an offering to their dead ancestors. Things like a warm sweater because they might be cold. They also have "money" that they burn, but it's money specifically made for burning for them. Another offering is food, and you put that food out in a bowl with chopsticks in the food to give to your ancestors.

Anyway, the interesting bit is that because of the way you put chopsticks in the bowl for an offering, with the chopsticks sticking into the rice, say, when you're eating your own food you never stick your chopsticks into the food like that. It's a pretty easy thing to do: you're eating, you stop to say something or to reach for a drink, and you want to put your chopsticks down. Where do you put them? Stick them into the rice. Then the people around you gasp in horror because your ancestors will think the food is for them now and when you go back to eating it they'll be pissed.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

My impression is that cultures that take animal sacrifice seriously take the sacrifice part seriously. It's not a sacrifice if you get to eat it, too. The whole point is that you set aside part of your profit out of respect for a higher power whose good will you hope to influence. Telling god this goat is for him, and then eating it yourself... Do you want to get cursed? Because that's how you get cursed.

I think that's a different thing. There's a distinction between making a sacrificial offering (which might get shared with the community) and diving the future from the entrails of a sacrificed animal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex

I believe sacrificing and sharing of (typically) a goat is still a major part of Eid celebrations in Islam but it's not a form of divination.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I think that's a different thing. There's a distinction between making a sacrificial offering (which might get shared with the community) and diving the future from the entrails of a sacrificed animal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haruspex

I believe sacrificing and sharing of (typically) a goat is still a major part of Eid celebrations in Islam but it's not a form of divination.

I think it's Offler the Crocodile God on Discworld who receives offerings of sausages. His priests make the offering of the spirit of the sausages for Offler to savour while they take care of disposing of the crude and lowley matter of which the sausages are made.

 

[Pixel42]

I think it's Offler the Crocodile God on Discworld who receives offerings of sausages. His priests make the offering of the spirit of the sausages for Offler to savour while they take care of disposing of the crude and lowley matter of which the sausages are made.

I've been trying to remember the name of that god. The priest solemnly explains that because the sausageosity of the sausages is consumed by the god, the substance of it turns to ash in their mouths.

The Discworld pantheon is extensive. My personal favourite is Bilious, the Oh God of Hangovers.

I wonder if Frank McLaughlin will be back in another four years to resume this discussion where he left off yet again.

 

[theprestige]

I wonder if Frank McLaughlin will be back in another four years to resume this discussion where he left off yet again.

Maybe the Vedas have told him his next fringe reset will be more successful if it's aligned with the Grand Conjunction.

 

[Darat]

What I have found recently when I look at those 'daily/monthly horoscopes', is amusing. For example; "Spend more time alone." "Remove yourself from your daily social interactions". "Instead of visiting, phone your loved ones".

It is as if astrologers are trying to be socially responsible? Yes, it amused me.

Well of course the astrologers can see the virus in the stars. That’s why they were all warning us about it months ago....

 

[bruto]

Well of course the astrologers can see the virus in the stars. That’s why they were all warning us about it months ago....

Not all of them can, though. My wife just looked in todays newspaper horoscope and for Sagittarius (that's me if you count my premature caesarian as a birth date...I'm sure the knife glittered in the starlight....)the prediction is "Grab every chance to socialize and party with others, because you're in the mood for fun. Sports Events, playful activities with kids and romantic dates are great choices." For Capricorn, which might also be my sign if you decide it is, the forecast is "This is a great day for a warm-hearted, family discussion. You might also want to entertain at home and invite people over to share good food and drink."

I might also have been an aquarius, if the planets had pulled right, but all they want me to do then is have meaningful discussions and avoid idle chitchat. Deep, man.

If today was your birthday one of the things recommended is to grab every chance to travel.

Wow, right on the money! I beleeeeeeve!