Debunking Astrology besides newspapers Sun Signs

[The Common Potato]

Back in the day, when playing Elite, I was Scorpius. I bought Elite Dangerous a while ago and am now Scorpius Hairloss.

It's scary how these predictions come true. Eight out of ten cats said so.

 

[Darat]

As *you* say. Can you show any evidence that acceptance to the challenge was only open to those with mental problems? This seems unlikely when it was one of the excluding factors.

As a magician, Randi was perfectly aware of the deceitfulness people might use to "demonstrate" some feat, which is exactly why the test protocols were carefully agreed by both parties to keep things as simple as practicable and exclude any possibility of cheating by either side.

It was amazing how simply Some of these paranormal powers were to sabotage. Bit of talcum powder in front of a phone book, bit of tape between the blindfold and the nose and woosh the powers stopped.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Ad hominen duly noted. Arrogance noted.

If you wish to write to your intellectual superiority, please drop off. The dialog is a waste of time for both us.

You still don't know what an ad hominem is, do you? Hint: the folk you have accused of using it weren't.

Oh, accusations of arrogance from someone who has dismissed most science, amongst other things, and who is still claiming that folk who disagree with his views are "mentally challenged" or similar. Please stop using such terms, as I said before it is offensive and most likely inaccurate (oh yes, I really do know what I'm talking about here).

I'm almost deafened by the sound of goal posts being moved...

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Sometimes personal experience can get you further than quantitative analysis. Go look at the stones at Sacsayhuaman in Peru. Those were not done by the Incas, the claim is ridiculous. That becomes obvious when you see them in person.

I have looked at those stones.
Sacsayhuaman is not finished. We can see every stage of how the Incas built it. Nothing there suggests anything otherwise.

 

[Wolrab]

Tell you what. I'll look into that education you speak of, if you'll look into how to right coherently so I can figure out what you are tying to say without reading three times.

You might want to read your posts three times before posting.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Interesting to read the study. Just one study without any understanding of how they chose the astrologers or verified the birth times, it doesn't do much to move the needle, but interesting.

The process of choosing the astrologers is explained in their article, which contains the results of the study as well.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2013/03/an-indian-test-of-indian-astrology/

I think this insistence on verified birth times is a bit of a dodge. How would any astrologer, good or bad, western or vedic, verify a birth time? Beyond asking when their customer was born, how else would they do it? I note that, in the study, they say they rely on the parents- which is the same way that professional astrologers do.
Perhaps you could clarify how astrologers you believe to be genuine verify the birth times?

And THEN I noticed that the people running this study were from the Skeptical Inquirer and that the study was not published anywhere.

Well, actually, it was. See above.

In fact, by your rules you can't cite this study because there was certainly no peer review or Journal publication---or does that rule your people throw at me all the time only count when it is to your advantage?

The link above cites numerous published studies, by Indian scientists.
Yes, we do insist on properly-conducted studies. If you have doubts about the methodology of the one above, you could state them here, or even, dare I suggest, contact the authors themselves.

To cite the Skeptic Inquirer on a study on Vedic Astrology is ridiculous. Kinda like having Mahahishi M Yogi University in Iowa do a study on the ability of their meditation to produce world peace. I'm sure they would be very well intentioned, but you couldn't use that to make your point.

We agree on that, right?

No, actually, we can't.
Read the study. All the researchers did was to run the study. All the actual results were produced by the respondents themselves, on their own. The researchers had no input, and no way to influence the horoscopes.

If Yogi Uni conduct a study under valid conditions, there is no reason it wouldn't be accepted. However, if they set out to prove their idea, rather than allowing the evidence to inform their conclusions, then it would be suspect. 9/11 'researchers', for example, have a bad track record of beginning with the conclusion, and retro-fitting the evidence to suit it.

 

[sackett]

I have looked at those stones.
Sacsayhuaman is not finished. We can see every stage of how the Incas built it. Nothing there suggests anything otherwise.

Incas and pre-Inca societies, according to Wiki. But I have an idea* that Frank is adverting to builders from Out There. 130,000 years ago probably I bet. With the help of Atlanteans from Mu. I mean, was old Ed Cayce ever wrong?



* I really must not keep doing that. It's already getting stale.

 

[Pixel42]

The process of choosing the astrologers is explained in their article, which contains the results of the study as well.

https://skepticalinquirer.org/2013/03/an-indian-test-of-indian-astrology/

I wasn't going to comment further on this study until I'd had a chance to look up the details, so thanks for this. Having now read the full article I have nothing much to add to your comments. An epic fail indeed.

 

[abaddon]

The guy you studied under, some guy who is dead, you know that about him, but you can't remember his name. How do you know he is dead if you don't know his name? You can't keep your BS straight.

I happen to be particularly poor at recalling names. But even if I could recall it, I would never had it out to some crank on the internet out of respect for the mans family.

If you know anything about astrology, Astrology 101, you'd know that the difference between the Sun sign astrology, not part of this forum, and Vedic astrology is night and day. To say they are "the very same" is to indicate you don't have a clue.

Then you should read the tread title to discover that Vedic Astrology is off topic.

Let's move on to Edgar Casey. That's an area where you claim to have researched. You claim to know about him. Tell me, what ideas of his do you find objectionable? What was the central points of his teaching?

And you are done. Your ignorance is so towering that you don't even know the man's name. You cannot even pass it off as a typo since you spelled it incorrectly no less than 6 more times in the rest of your pointless rambling screed.

 

[Pixel42]

The thread title is confusingly worded but if you read the OP it was created to discuss the debunking of types of astrology other than the usual sun sign type, so Vedic astrology is on topic.

For some reason Frank McLaughlin bumped the thread to continue a discussion he was having four years ago from the exact point he left off. He's making exactly the same argument, and getting exactly the same rebuttals.

 

[steenkh]

Presumably, he resurrected the thread because he had new evidence?

Well, apparently not.

 

[Pixel42]

He's even feigning ignorance of the evidence there is, like the Indian study, despite having it brought to his attention four years ago.

 

[junkshop]

Unlurking to note:

In 1993 I was told my mother would die 15 years later. She died in 2007 within the timeframe predicted. Cognitive biases has nothing to do with it: my mother is either dead or not.

I was told by an American astrologer practicing Indian astrology when my mother would die approximate 30 years before her death. I was in my 30s. She picked a range of years, not the exact year so you could understandably dismiss this as not precise enough.

 

[steenkh]

Maybe he is forgetting stuff while he is getting older. This story certainly got better by the telling.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

If any astrology of any type, Vedic, Sun Sign, or Moonshine, actually worked. Those who used it would become rich. The fact that "Frank McLaughlin" bothers to spend time posting here rather than flying around the World in his private 747, proves that it does not.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If any astrology of any type, Vedic, Sun Sign, or Moonshine, actually worked. Those who used it would become rich. The fact that "Frank McLaughlin" bothers to spend time posting here rather than flying around the World in his private 747, proves that it does not.

To be fair, the astrology industry does turn over a lot of money. They just don't do it by generating real predictions, they do it as entertainment or by giving people whatever reassurance they need to make the decisions they wanted to make anyway. Now that isn't nothing. Both of those things are services people would willingly pay for. It just isn't the thing astrology pretends to do.

 

[EHocking]

If any astrology of any type, Vedic, Sun Sign, or Moonshine, actually worked. Those who used it would become rich. The fact that "Frank McLaughlin" bothers to spend time posting here rather than flying around the World in his private 747, proves that it does not.

Perhaps arsestrology predicted the current global shut down so he knew not to invest in a 747.

Huh?

Huh?

 

[theprestige]

It is a big business in India and Europe and Wall Street. I don't think they light a candle in India without checking with an astrologer. In the Vedas it says "that which is closest to the truth lasts longest," which certainly would include astrology, developed around 7,000 years ago.

Yes, religion is big business everywhere. As religion. And the mechanisms by which astrology is monetized are the same as the mechanisms by which religion is monetized.

This is substantially different from scientifically founded industrial processes, which are monetized by producing measurable goods and services in a predictable, repeatable way. I'm sure there are indeed superstitious investors on Wall Street who consult the stars when making investment decisions. And I'm sure that if you examined their investing strategies, it would be impossible to separate the effect of astrology from the other effects, and identify a predictable, repeatable, contribution from that source.

The reason I'm sure of that second thing is because if astrology were a predictable, repeatable way to play the stock market, it would form the industrial basis for every successful firm on Wall Street.

That's the economic rebuttal. There's no doubt that astrology works as a religion: It profits by telling people stories they want to hear. It profits by exploiting the various failure modes of human cognition, most prominently confirmation bias.

What I'm saying is, astrology only works as a religion. It obviously doesn't work as a scientific principle. If it did, it wouldn't be found alongside the other religions and superstitions of the world. If astrology actually worked, it'd be found alongside the other industrial processes of the world. The manufacture of aluminum from bauxite ore, for example. The prevention of disease by vaccines. The transmission of signals by radio waves. The powering of automobiles by internal combustion or electrical batteries.

If astrology works, beyond making people feel good the same way any other fairy tale works, then it would have been put to work a long time ago.

Show me one demonstration of astrology, that is predictable and repeatable in its results, the way science is predictable and repeatable. Not an anecdote. Not a vague allusion to how popular it is in India. An actual scientific demonstration.

Even if astrology really is more than just a fairy tale, it can't be much more than a fairy tale. It can hardly be anything more than a fairy tale, otherwise we would have noticed by now and put it to work at scale.

---

For me, it's like ghosts. Even if ghosts are real, it's obvious they don't really do anything.

 

[Roboramma]

I invite all astrologers to go to www.gjopen.com and make some forecasts. If you can come up with a brier score of 0.05 or so, the world should take note.

Seems like a very simple and easy way to test the efficacy of astrology. If you know anyone who you think is an astrologer whose understanding of astrology can actually lead to accurate predictions, ask them to try.

 

[Roboramma]

All the evidence I've seen contradicts this. There are web pages full of twins who have never met, showing up for the meeting in the exact same clothing and color with a great many traits in common down to the drink they prefer (diet pepsi or whatever). Twins are not going to be separated by location, but often by time, one birth an hour later. That can be huge.

How about Tom and Mark Kelly, the NASA space station employees? Mark lost all his hair a later than Tom. Both NASA engineers. Both divorced once and remarried. Both with two kids. Agreed, one example does not make a case.

Ever heard of DNA?