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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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humber, there are some studies that point out the obvious, that running on a treadmill is the same as running with a tailwind. Those are probably aimed at the PE majors. Since they, like you, have a real problem with Galilean Transformations. If the article assumes that you know some physics they don't see much point in point out the obvious.
 
And the countless academic references also cited in the paper you claim supports you.
The authors contend that the reported differences are due to less than perfect TM's, yet their own data does not support that.

FTM vs. overground measurements.
We compared the FTM signals with the established methodology of a
traditional runway-mounted force platform. We had a single subject run at 3 m/s on the FTM and across our force-platform runway. A comparison of the average values (from 10 steps) for various force magnitudes from the FTM vs. overground revealed only small differences caused by normal variation. The average peak vertical force (Fz) values were 1.78 vs. 1.83 3 BWt
for the impact peak and 2.47 vs. 2.44 3 BWt for the active peak. The average peak braking (Fy) forces were 20.30 vs. 20.35 3 BWt, and the average propulsive peaks were 0.21 vs. 0.20 3 BWt. A comparison of a
typical running stride for the FTM vs. overground force-platform records is shown in Fig. 4. The signals obtained with the FTM were quite similar to those obtained overground. Because some stride-to-stride variability occurs, the traces were not identical. All of these values concurred with those in the literature (21).

In other words, there is indeed a difference.

DISCUSSION
From a purely mechanical perspective, steady-speed walking or running on an adequate motorized treadmill is identical to overground walking and running; the only difference is the frame of reference for each situation (23). Locomotion on a treadmill with inadequate power or momentum (i.e., no flywheel) does indeed differ from overground locomotion.
However, on a treadmill with an adequate motor and flywheel, where the belt speed does not vary, the kinematics (21), ground-reaction forces (19), and metabolic cost (2) of locomotion are nearly indistinguishable from over-
ground locomotion. As detailed above, our motor and flywheel appear to be adequate in maintaining a constant tread speed.


Others papers report a metabolic difference of 10%. The authors did not measure that, but make statements like "appears to be" and "nearly indistinguishable from" overground locomotion.

This experiment also compares a TM and fixed platform and concluded they are not the same.
http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2007/11/29/japplphysiol.01380.2006.full.pdf

And this is a contradiction...
In Fig. 5, we show a typical force recording from the FTM for the same subject walking at 1.25 m/s. When humans walk, both feet are on the ground for at least art of the stride cycle.

Want to tell me how the belt would not cause the runners feet to move with the belt during the time that both feet are on the belt?

The rather odd mistake of not balancing the flywheel, claiming the device is a reference and an improvement upon other designs, even though turning on the motor produces 80N readings, suggests they may be Carteers at heart.
I would consider that 80N to be evidence of a total failure.



Because Carteers have always said that a runner on a treadmill is exactly same as a runner on the road at wind speed. The latter is said to explain the "tailwind" that will be felt if traveling with the belt. There is no mention of a tailwind in any of the references.
Now that there are references that contradict, you and JB are now back-pedaling.
Your "equivalence" is not the guaranteed assumption derived from the very simple-minded version of Galilean Equivalence that considers only IFOR and velocity, that it is claimed to be. Opponents have always said that for that claim to hold, all forces and energies must be the same. The runner says they are not.

No, a real physics experiment only says the relevant forces need to be transformed. This is why you can't lay a grandfather's clock on its side and expect it to run but 6 hours later it will be in that position in space due to the rotation of the earth. The relevant force for the transform is gravity and its orientation.

If you want to go down this rathole, do it alone. As I said earlier, the only things to transform are speed of the belt, speed of the wind, density of the air in a reasonable range, temp in a reasonable range, and gravity. I'll let you worry about electrical and magnetic fields, quantum effects, Coriolis force, etc but you can make all the noise you want without me responding more than this time.

WindGrins
 
http://this.is.broken

If you click on the above, you'll see if goes to google.com. If you cut & paste it into a new post, it won't.

Humber, if you want to copy a url from a previous post, right click on it, and hit copy link location. Don't just highlight it and cut & paste. That's how you ended up with broken links in your post that no amount of 'unfurling' can fix.

You are correct of course and you obviously understand the fact that Humber simply did not wrap the links with a URL tag or use the link macro.

I know windgrins thinks I am being hard on Humber and he probably thinks the whole conversation on Humbers link issues is not worth having but I completely disagree. I think it shows as much as anything has lately exactly where Humber is coming from. There is of course nothing wrong with not knowing how to paste a link. Its no big deal, but it does show exactly how the Humberverse works to those who might not know who is correct about the cart.

He posts some links incorrectly due to ignorance. When it is pointed out to him he does not say thanks but instead condescendingly points out that the dots represent the rest of the link as if everyone did not already know that. He then asks us to perform an action he invented called "unfurling" which is a something he made up. It is of course impossible to know what the dots are hiding when the entire link is not contained within the URL tag. The fact "unfurling" does not exist and is in fact not possible is pointed out to him. He then posts a link to a site which he says can be used to correct his errors which has absolutely nothing to do with anything at all relevant to the issue he is referring to. He may as well of posted a link to a Chinese recipe site.
And so it goes.
 
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You don't need some javascript to expand the links, just right click the link that has a ... in it and choose "copy link" (or whatever it is for your individual browser) and it'll copy the actual link, not the text with the ... in it.

What's displayed and what the link actually points to are two different things.

Only if you post the link correctly. Which Humber did not.
 
Really, seems more like they are discussing normal variance in a very small sample size. Let's see . . .



Do those bold words above mean anything to you? Anything at all?

What a waste of time this has become . . .

And of course, if it's in print it must be true, right?

If that is so, then you have to accept all of the other references to the contrary don't you?

Whatever the case, the existence of those vibrations says your frame is not inertial, and that was the point that was being made.
 
I know windgrins thinks I am being hard on Humber and he probably thinks the whole conversation on Humbers link issues is not worth having but I completely disagree. I think it shows as much as anything has lately exactly where Humber is coming from.

It had you asking several times on how to solve your little problem, and it was only you.
 
And of course, if it's in print it must be true, right?

If that is so, then you have to accept all of the other references to the contrary don't you?

Whatever the case, the existence of those vibrations says your frame is not inertial, and that was the point that was being made.

Still not quite understanding those frames of reference are you humber? There is no rule against vibrations occurring within a frame of reference. In other words, humber wrong try again.
 
Still not quite understanding those frames of reference are you humber? There is no rule against vibrations occurring within a frame of reference. In other words, humber wrong try again.

If there are accelerations, the frame is not inertial.

If 80N exists in that TM, then one may well suppose that in a commercial unit they will be there too, and that is more than enough to influence a 0.16kg cart.

You won't rescue the TM, or make the 100 degree winds go away.
 
Another lie of course in an endless string. You can't find a *single* link that will show me saying what you claim.

JB

Sure. Back away.

Oh, it seems I *can*fine at least a *single* example.

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7501919888/m/58619922501/p/9
"The vehicle moving forward on the treadmill in a still air room is not a simulation of DDWFTTW, nor an approximation of DDWFTTW -- it's not even merely equivalent to DDWFTTW ... it is an *instance* of DDWFTTW".
 
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Once again our dear Humber posts a link to prove the exact opposite of what he claims!
How the Black Knight manages to shoot himself in the foot so often amazes me.
 
Once again our dear Humber posts a link to prove the exact opposite of what he claims!
How the Black Knight manages to shoot himself in the foot so often amazes me.

And that link says what?

Jb said:
Learn the difference between an "analogy" and an "instance" and you'll be much better off.

"The vehicle moving forward on the treadmill in a still air room is not a simulation of DDWFTTW, nor an approximation of DDWFTTW -- it's not even merely equivalent to DDWFTTW


spork said:
You need to look into the principle of equivalence of inertial reference frames. Galileo, Newton, and Einstein tell us that a cart on a stationary road in a 10 mph tailwind is IDENTICAL to a cart on a road that's moving 10mph under "no" wind.
 
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I have a suggestion:

Why don't we drop this rathole conversation about running on TMs since our cart rolls on the TM and is not human so it doesn't suffer from any physiological cues that the TM enforces on the runner such as the need to run to stay on the TM.

The tangential papers from this discipline were used to try to make the case that the TM is not a valid transform for the cart. Even the papers say there is no difference in the physics-just physiological issues with running. Exercise web sites talk about "pulling your feet back" and the wind. It should not surprise anyone that this is not a "physics" issue but a perception issue for humans. carts don't have senses so we don't need to worry about their "perceptions". Just the rolling forces, wind, and gravity, cause that's really all there is.


I was way ahead of you. Just re-read this post:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7306721&postcount=9990

I said: "We don’t need to get into the physiology here, only the kinematics of the treadmill itself. What matters in this discussion is that even with a custom-made treadmill with specially machined rollers, significant forces were measured in all three spatial directions."



Since our little carts roll, we need not be concerned about this aspect.

The real issue is:

Is a smoothly running TM moving its belt at the WS we desire the Galilean equivalent for a cart holding position (wrt the frame) as that of a cart rolling on a level surface at WS?

The carteers obviously say it is. The deniers say it isn't. If you want to have discussions, lets drop the physiological issues with running on a TM as they don't apply here. This is a physics issue, not a human factors issue. The two forms of locomotion have drastically different issues.

How about some focus, folks?

WindGrins

Again, I am way ahead of you on this. The issue is the kinematics of the treadmill and whether or not a transform that neglects large vibrations is valid.

I said: "It is not difficult to imagine that a 60 N force concentrated in the frequency spectrum between 46 to 86 Hertz can have some effects on a 200 gram cart that is loosely coupled to the treadmill belt. In fact, it is nonsensical to think that it would have no effect!

I do not need to prove what the effect is to discount the Galilean transform of the cart on a treadmill to a cart on a road in a wind. I only need to show that these forces are present on the treadmill and they have not been transformed to the situation of the cart on the road. That is more than enough to say that such a transform is incorrect, incomplete and invalid!
"

Your claim is that a transform can ignore irrelevant forces and give the example of laying a grandfather clock on its side. Fair enough, but just HOW do you know vibration foces of 60 N on the treadmill frame, for a cart that has a gravitational force of 2 N on the treadmill belt, are irrelevant?
 
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I was way ahead of you. Just re-read this post:
...
Again, I am way ahead of you on this. The issue is the kinematics of the treadmill and whether or not a transform that neglects large vibrations is valid.
...
Your claim is that a transform can ignore irrelevant forces and give the example of laying a grandfather clock on its side. Fair enough, but just HOW do you know vibration foces of 60 N on the treadmill frame, for a cart that has a gravitational force of 2 N on the treadmill belt, are irrelevant?

You're kidding right?

No really, you're kidding.
 
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