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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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I will give Humber this: He did find a bunch of web sites from exercise magazines and PE majors that do say the TM "pulls your feet under".

However, the articles quoted by PPG and Humber are correct in saying this is not the case:

"From a purely mechanical perspective, steady-speed
walking or running on an adequate motorized treadmill
is identical to overground walking and running; the
only difference is the frame of reference for each
situation (23). Locomotion on a treadmill with inadequate power or momentum (i.e., no flywheel) does
indeed differ from overground locomotion. However, on
a treadmill with an adequate motor and flywheel,
where the belt speed does not vary, the kinematics (21),
ground-reaction forces (19), and metabolic cost (2) of
locomotion are nearly indistinguishable from overground locomotion. As detailed above, our motor and
flywheel appear to be adequate in maintaining a constant tread speed."


I suppose this is why they are PE majors and not physics majors!

Amusing.

WindGrins
 
There is no way anyone has ever said something so absurd. Only you would even entertain the notion that it might be identical. My TM is not even wide enough to drive a small car on it, never mind an SUV.

The TM is indistinguishable in all ways relevant to the ddwfttw cart. Rather than a model of a cart in the wind it is certainly an instance of a cart in the wind.

ETA: How are you coming with that lesson on how to unfurl links?

Jduffy,

If it is of any help, I believe if you right click on the link, you will get a small window and if you answer "open in another window" , it should work.

Let me know if this works for you.

Thanks,
 
Suggestion

I have a suggestion:

Why don't we drop this rathole conversation about running on TMs since our cart rolls on the TM and is not human so it doesn't suffer from any physiological cues that the TM enforces on the runner such as the need to run to stay on the TM.

The tangential papers from this discipline were used to try to make the case that the TM is not a valid transform for the cart. Even the papers say there is no difference in the physics-just physiological issues with running. Exercise web sites talk about "pulling your feet back" and the wind. It should not surprise anyone that this is not a "physics" issue but a perception issue for humans. carts don't have senses so we don't need to worry about their "perceptions". Just the rolling forces, wind, and gravity, cause that's really all there is.

Since our little carts roll, we need not be concerned about this aspect.

The real issue is:

Is a smoothly running TM moving its belt at the WS we desire the Galilean equivalent for a cart holding position (wrt the frame) as that of a cart rolling on a level surface at WS?

The carteers obviously say it is. The deniers say it isn't. If you want to have discussions, lets drop the physiological issues with running on a TM as they don't apply here. This is a physics issue, not a human factors issue. The two forms of locomotion have drastically different issues.

How about some focus, folks?

WindGrins
 
I will give Humber this: He did find a bunch of web sites from exercise magazines and PE majors that do say the TM "pulls your feet under".

However, the articles quoted by PPG and Humber are correct in saying this is not the case:

"From a purely mechanical perspective, steady-speed
walking or running on an adequate motorized treadmill
is identical to overground walking and running; the
only difference is the frame of reference for each
situation (23). Locomotion on a treadmill with inadequate power or momentum (i.e., no flywheel) does
indeed differ from overground locomotion. However, on
a treadmill with an adequate motor and flywheel,
where the belt speed does not vary, the kinematics (21),
ground-reaction forces (19), and metabolic cost (2) of
locomotion are nearly indistinguishable from overground locomotion. As detailed above, our motor and
flywheel appear to be adequate in maintaining a constant tread speed."


I suppose this is why they are PE majors and not physics majors!

Amusing.

WindGrins

But, you see, you are the not one of the second group but the first.
That article is wrong. There are dozens of papers which contradict it, and that is backed by a lot of runners, trainers and clinicians who agree. You will not find runners arguing that the TM and road are the same.
Your problem is that you can't think for yourself, so rely on one line from one paper, which contains many other odd errors. It did not cause you any concern that the authors stated they mounted the motor on to the TM, otherwise they would need to account for its influence, yet is causes 80N forces to be generated. One can hardly imagine how that could be worse.
 
Jduffy,

If it is of any help, I believe if you right click on the link, you will get a small window and if you answer "open in another window" , it should work.

Let me know if this works for you.

Thanks,

Or paste this as a bookmark.

javascript:(function(){var%20i,c,x,h;%20for(i=0;x=document.links;++i)%20{%20h=x.href;%20x.title+="%20"%20+%20x.innerHTML;%20while(c=x.firstChild)x.removeChild(c);%20x.appendChild(document.createTextNode(h));%20}%20})()

well it would work if the software that also furled the links, did not turn things into smiley icons. Replace with colon and open parenthesis.

This is the source:
Follow
"full urls as link text Changes the text of links to match their absolute urls"
https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/pagelinks.html
 
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I have a suggestion:

Why don't we drop this rathole conversation about running on TMs since our cart rolls on the TM and is not human so it doesn't suffer from any physiological cues that the TM enforces on the runner such as the need to run to stay on the TM.

The tangential papers from this discipline were used to try to make the case that the TM is not a valid transform for the cart. Even the papers say there is no difference in the physics-just physiological issues with running. Exercise web sites talk about "pulling your feet back" and the wind. It should not surprise anyone that this is not a "physics" issue but a perception issue for humans. carts don't have senses so we don't need to worry about their "perceptions". Just the rolling forces, wind, and gravity, cause that's really all there is.

Since our little carts roll, we need not be concerned about this aspect.

The real issue is:

Is a smoothly running TM moving its belt at the WS we desire the Galilean equivalent for a cart holding position (wrt the frame) as that of a cart rolling on a level surface at WS?

The carteers obviously say it is. The deniers say it isn't. If you want to have discussions, lets drop the physiological issues with running on a TM as they don't apply here. This is a physics issue, not a human factors issue. The two forms of locomotion have drastically different issues.

How about some focus, folks?

WindGrins

Now that you are being beaten, you want to call off the fight.
 
But, you see, you are the not one of the second group but the first.
That article is wrong. There are dozens of papers which contradict it, and that is backed by a lot of runners, trainers and clinicians who agree. You will not find runners arguing that the TM and road are the same.
Your problem is that you can't think for yourself, so rely on one line from one paper, which contains many other odd errors. It did not cause you any concern that the authors stated they mounted the motor on to the TM, otherwise they would need to account for its influence, yet is causes 80N forces to be generated. One can hardly imagine how that could be worse.

Do you have a point to make here that differs from what I said. We are not talking about human runners. We are talking about physics.

Human runners on a TM is a non-applicable tangent.

WindGrins
 
Now that you are being beaten, you want to call off the fight.

We could talk about the dynamics of sawing off trees in the forest also but it wouldn't have much applicability. I side with the papers who say the only differences with a good TM for runners is physiological not physics. You side with the PE majors.

You may consider this winning the fight if you like from my perspective. I don't care. If you want to, keep arguing it all you like. I think you are going to have a hard time changing anyone's mind with the information presented so far and we know you are never going to change on any point. Why waste keypresses?

WindGrins
 
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Jduffy,

If it is of any help, I believe if you right click on the link, you will get a small window and if you answer "open in another window" , it should work.

Let me know if this works for you.

Thanks,

Windgrins, whether or not a link is opened in another window or not has no bearing on the issue. Humber pasted the links incorrectly. Let me know if you need further help understanding.
 
Windgrins, whether or not a link is opened in another window or not has no bearing on the issue. Humber pasted the links incorrectly. Let me know if you need further help understanding.

No issue. The links in the dots in them worked for me that way. Maybe I missed the ones referred to. I always test mine but sometimes weird stuff happens.

This is the kind of stuff I even let Humber slide on!
 
We could talk about the dynamics of sawing off trees in the forest also but it wouldn't have much applicability. I side with the papers who say the only differences with a good TM for runners is physiological not physics. You side with the PE majors.

And the countless academic references also cited in the paper you claim supports you.
The authors contend that the reported differences are due to less than perfect TM's, yet their own data does not support that.

FTM vs. overground measurements.
We compared the FTM signals with the established methodology of a
traditional runway-mounted force platform. We had a single subject run at 3 m/s on the FTM and across our force-platform runway. A comparison of the average values (from 10 steps) for various force magnitudes from the FTM vs. overground revealed only small differences caused by normal variation. The average peak vertical force (Fz) values were 1.78 vs. 1.83 3 BWt
for the impact peak and 2.47 vs. 2.44 3 BWt for the active peak. The average peak braking (Fy) forces were 20.30 vs. 20.35 3 BWt, and the average propulsive peaks were 0.21 vs. 0.20 3 BWt. A comparison of a
typical running stride for the FTM vs. overground force-platform records is shown in Fig. 4. The signals obtained with the FTM were quite similar to those obtained overground. Because some stride-to-stride variability occurs, the traces were not identical. All of these values concurred with those in the literature (21).

In other words, there is indeed a difference.

DISCUSSION
From a purely mechanical perspective, steady-speed walking or running on an adequate motorized treadmill is identical to overground walking and running; the only difference is the frame of reference for each situation (23). Locomotion on a treadmill with inadequate power or momentum (i.e., no flywheel) does indeed differ from overground locomotion.
However, on a treadmill with an adequate motor and flywheel, where the belt speed does not vary, the kinematics (21), ground-reaction forces (19), and metabolic cost (2) of locomotion are nearly indistinguishable from over-
ground locomotion. As detailed above, our motor and flywheel appear to be adequate in maintaining a constant tread speed.


Others papers report a metabolic difference of 10%. The authors did not measure that, but make statements like "appears to be" and "nearly indistinguishable from" overground locomotion.

This experiment also compares a TM and fixed platform and concluded they are not the same.
http://jap.physiology.org/content/early/2007/11/29/japplphysiol.01380.2006.full.pdf

And this is a contradiction...
In Fig. 5, we show a typical force recording from the FTM for the same subject walking at 1.25 m/s. When humans walk, both feet are on the ground for at least art of the stride cycle.

Want to tell me how the belt would not cause the runners feet to move with the belt during the time that both feet are on the belt?

The rather odd mistake of not balancing the flywheel, claiming the device is a reference and an improvement upon other designs, even though turning on the motor produces 80N readings, suggests they may be Carteers at heart.
I would consider that 80N to be evidence of a total failure.

You may consider this winning the fight if you like from my perspective. I don't care. If you want to, keep arguing it all you like. I think you are going to have a hard time changing anyone's mind with the information presented so far and we know you are never going to change on any point. Why waste keypresses?

Because Carteers have always said that a runner on a treadmill is exactly same as a runner on the road at wind speed. The latter is said to explain the "tailwind" that will be felt if traveling with the belt. There is no mention of a tailwind in any of the references.
Now that there are references that contradict, you and JB are now back-pedaling.
Your "equivalence" is not the guaranteed assumption derived from the very simple-minded version of Galilean Equivalence that considers only IFOR and velocity, that it is claimed to be. Opponents have always said that for that claim to hold, all forces and energies must be the same. The runner says they are not.
 
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We could talk about the dynamics of sawing off trees in the forest also but it wouldn't have much applicability. I side with the papers who say the only differences with a good TM for runners is physiological not physics. You side with the PE majors.

You may consider this winning the fight if you like from my perspective. I don't care. If you want to, keep arguing it all you like. I think you are going to have a hard time changing anyone's mind with the information presented so far and we know you are never going to change on any point. Why waste keypresses?

WindGrins

WG: You may want to save a copy of this to save you time down the road. /helpful
 
humber, there is no need to mention a tailwind. Notice that they did not mention that they were running on the Earth with a gravitational field of 9.8m/s^2. There are some things that do not need to be mentioned. For you we do the favor of telling you about the tailwind since you could not get it on your own.
 
No issue. The links in the dots in them worked for me that way. Maybe I missed the ones referred to. I always test mine but sometimes weird stuff happens.

This is the kind of stuff I even let Humber slide on!

Use this:
This is the source:
Follow
"full urls as link text Changes the text of links to match their absolute urls"
https://www.squarefree.com/bookmarklets/pagelinks.html

attachment.php
 

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humber, there is no need to mention a tailwind. Notice that they did not mention that they were running on the Earth with a gravitational field of 9.8m/s^2. There are some things that do not need to be mentioned. For you we do the favor of telling you about the tailwind since you could not get it on your own.

Sure. They also did not mention faeries.
 
The authors contend that the reported differences are due to less than perfect TM's, yet their own data does not support that.

Really, seems more like they are discussing normal variance in a very small sample size. Let's see . . .

FTM vs. overground measurements.
We compared the FTM signals with the established methodology of a
traditional runway-mounted force platform. We had a single subject run at 3 m/s on the FTM and across our force-platform runway. A comparison of the average values (from 10 steps) for various force magnitudes from the FTM vs. overground revealed only small differences caused by normal variation. The average peak vertical force (Fz) values were 1.78 vs. 1.83 3 BWt
for the impact peak and 2.47 vs. 2.44 3 BWt for the active peak. The average peak braking (Fy) forces were 20.30 vs. 20.35 3 BWt, and the average propulsive peaks were 0.21 vs. 0.20 3 BWt. A comparison of a
typical running stride for the FTM vs. overground force-platform records is shown in Fig. 4. The signals obtained with the FTM were quite similar to those obtained overground. Because some stride-to-stride variability occurs, the traces were not identical. All of these values concurred with those in the literature (21).

In other words, there is indeed a difference.

Do those bold words above mean anything to you? Anything at all?

What a waste of time this has become . . .
 
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You don't need some javascript to expand the links, just right click the link that has a ... in it and choose "copy link" (or whatever it is for your individual browser) and it'll copy the actual link, not the text with the ... in it.

What's displayed and what the link actually points to are two different things.

It's not that difficult.
 
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http://this.is.broken

If you click on the above, you'll see if goes to google.com. If you cut & paste it into a new post, it won't.

Humber, if you want to copy a url from a previous post, right click on it, and hit copy link location. Don't just highlight it and cut & paste. That's how you ended up with broken links in your post that no amount of 'unfurling' can fix.
 
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