That's not correct ... as has been explained in this thread more than once.
-- Roger
Last edited:
-
Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more
Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind
- Thread starter ynot
- Start date
- Status
That's not correct ... as has been explained in this thread more than once.
-- Roger
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
Humber, until the collision, there isn't anything at the centre of mass, just like there isn't anything at the centre of mass of a hollow ball.
The observer, if he has a scrap of common sense, is standing as far as practicable from the point of impact and is certainly outside the closed system we're considering.
I'm happy you're amused, yet it's embarrassing to see you decry simple physics as "junior school errors". There is nothing new about this. That you mock it as new thinking exposes your lack of understanding.
You are still barking up the wrong tree. If you think I have overlooked a miscalculation, show us where, please.
I still don't care either way. I have enough entertainment watching you fail to account for the conserved kinetic energy in a closed system. If you want Spork to play your game, I imagine you'll have to persuade him yourself.
nope
Spork answers Humbers questions!
Can we see that "Top Secret" cart now that you have the data Humber?
Humber,
It does look like Spork is willing to answer some questions for you!
WindGrins
Can we see that "Top Secret" cart now that you have the data Humber?
Humber,
It does look like Spork is willing to answer some questions for you!
WindGrins
Rhett and Jamie have told you that you are dead wrong. OK?
You wish. The data I have, already shows that your cart is a joke.
I underestimated how much you manipulated the conditions, and selected what you wanted to be seen.
Can we see that "Top Secret" cart now that you have the data Humber?
Humber,
It does look like Spork is willing to answer some questions for you!
WindGrins
Your colours are showing, Windgrins.
Humber,
Way back in post #2620, completely unsolicited by me, you promised a "Top Secret" cart that "This cart goes up the TM belt, no prop, motors or tricks."
I encouraged you to produce it with a few caveats as otherwise it wouldn't be meaningful in post #2642:
No energy storage in the device.
No strings or other attachments to anything other than the belt of the treadmill.
Steady state start and no change of speed of the treadmill.
No weird vibrational jumping around due to a "chattery" treadmill.
No obvious "stupid tricks".
It wasn't my idea but yours to produce this.
Consequently, I've asked you several times to just show us what you say you have.
You've asked Spork multiple times to show his claim that a cart can go DDWFTTW and he did to most everyone's satisfaction.
I am under the impression at this point, that your claims are hollow and merely bluster. However, I will gladly give your cart a totally fair look and celebrate with you if it can do as you see with the caveats from above satisfied.
I'm simply asking you to produce what you said you had as you have asked of Spork and JB. They seemed to have satisfied most posters here. You have not made a showing.
If you feel that I'm treating you unkind and unfair, let us know.
Regards,
WindGrins.
Last edited:
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
No. Not OK. You did not understand what you read.
Look, you're not going to take it from anyone here, so I have a suggestion: Get a second opinion.
If you happen to know, say, a high school physics teacher, why don't you direct them here or print out the relevant portion of the thread for them to read?
Last edited:
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
Yet Windgrins was the most assiduously "uncoloured" of posters when he arrived here. You seem to have that effect on people. The phrase "try the patience of a saint" appears appropriate.
In all seriousness, I encourage you to get an opinion on your KE vs momentum notions from a physicist you trust. You are not willing to be corrected on this forum, and you are mistaken.
Trouble discerning the difference between an immovable solid wall and a car?
A professor of physics has told you that you, are wrong.
Not about something vague, but simple a case of collisions. I passed my exams with flying colors thanks.
Now, you had that 100% wrong.
Trying to save face, by resort to momentum, tarting up two numbers, talking of centre of mass and closed systems will not rectify that.
I don't need you to tell me I don't understand, or seek the advice of a teacher, because it was not me that was corrected by the Professor, but you.
We can see what the reaction would have been has Mythbusters shown the cart to be a sham.
You can make all the lists you like.
I have told you what I intend to do. And the trial comes first.
Anyone who follows this cart will know that all will be denied. Spork chose Dr Camp as an expert, when the didn't pan out, the Dr Camp is wrong.
Ditto Dr Whiteman
And now, Dr Rhett and Mythbuster's Jamie are being told they are wrong.
So you see Windgrins, it will be I who lights the candle, and not you.
Last edited:
3point14
Pi
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2005
- Messages
- 23,211
I do wonder whose opinion he would trust. I suspect it's no-one.
I applaud your efforts, and if it's any consolation, I've learned something, thanks.
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
No. He hasn't. Clearly you do not understand. Maybe you should read it again.
Better still, since you keep repeating the accusation, maybe you should point out precisely where the professor of physics told me I was wrong. (Oh boy, will my face be red when you do that. I'll be all like "nooooo" and you'll be all like "looooser" and it'll be amazing.)
So can you actually do that?
Had what wrong? Do you mean you think I said you never passed a science exam? Maybe you could add that to your shopping list of accusations to substantiate. I said you should show your notions to a physics teacher, because they're garbage science. If you ever knew this material, you have forgotten it.
Handwaving like this merely signals your inability to address the substance of the issue. It makes you look silly.
You got that right
Remember you're going to point out exactly where that happened, right?
You should show them your own magic cart. If you ever finish it.
Last edited:
I told you that you and Spork were wrong. Rhett said so to.
It does not in the least matter what you or the Carteers think.
And we have Spork now saying the balloons take no time to accelerate.
That follows on from balloons having no potential energy and that cars moving in opposite directions have zero relative velocity when they pass
The TM cart and the trial analysis will be posted elsewhere.
Second screening here.
Talk amongst yourselves. I have all I need now.
Last edited:
Long Winded message to the Community!
JBTH.
You are being more than kind to me. When I arrived, I was not kind to Humber (as RP will attest) but I stated an opinion and I believe I was fair nonetheless. I will restate it now just for the record:
I've watched this forum for quite some time and never made a comment. I probably won't again but it has been very instructive.
It is clear that Humber's only benefit in this discussion is to keep the thread going during lulls. No amount of data, empirical evidence, formulas, math, physics, etc. is ever going to convince him of anything. He is the living breathing epitome of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!" I truly do not believe I have ever witnessed a human who thinks they know something about physics that can be so wrong, or at least so severely misguided, in almost every post. To his credit, he has given many the opportunity to clarify concepts so that almost anyone can understand how this works.
One can quickly see that I didn't live up to my statement about "probably commenting again." and I also stated I was a jerk in not living up to my sincere attempt to not be in anyway condescending or arrogant.
I believe that the statement about Humber still stands on its merit but my opinion of Humber's beliefs are not important in the pursuit of science, education, and understanding.
So I don't qualify as noble person (much less a saint) but I have tried to show patience and illustrate common misunderstandings with care as I greatly appreciate when others give me the same courtesy.
I will say I also tried to give any reasoned argument a fair listen and I attempted to learn from them (and indeed I did!).
When I first read about the achievement of DDWFTTW, I was completely skeptical and must admit that my initial reaction was disbelief, disagreement, and thinking that Spork and JB were great practical jokers and had hoodwinked us all.
Even though, I was completely skeptical, I read further and still, admittedly slow, wrestled with the physics that the coherent posters were stating, as this is a very interesting topic to me. When I believed I actually understood the physics of the device and that it was completely credible and achievable, I thought it appropriate to celebrate the victory pushing the accomplished one level deeper into the heretofore unachieved. I overcame my initial skepticism because the arguments were well reasoned, the record credible, and the Spork and JB sincere.
I was not surprised at all that many posters expressed my doubts and ignorance. What I was surprised at was that some could become so entrenched in their beliefs that they could not see obvious and reasonable arguments as illustrative. The community gave absurd levels of their time to convince via reasoned argument. Many expressed common levels of aloofness but most came to understand the achievement and how it was accomplished.
Most breakthroughs are accompanied with extreme levels of disbelief and demand proof. Reasonably so, but a level of polity would not have hurt anyone, including me when asking the achievers to justify their victory.
To Spork and JB's credit, they took on all comers who simply asked politely to be enlightened. To my discredit, it is not clear, even to me, that I would have been appropriately diffident if not for reading all the previous discussions. To this I claim guilty and am trying to take this as a lesson in humility.
Having said this, it is clear that Humber's training in modern or classical physics is lacking but that should not be held against him as that is the predominant way of the world.
I simply desire that I can go forward with humility to gain a little light in areas where I am ignorant. I will continue to attempt to evidence this attitude with good humor and a shared desire to learn more.
With Regards,
WindGrins
JBTH.
You are being more than kind to me. When I arrived, I was not kind to Humber (as RP will attest) but I stated an opinion and I believe I was fair nonetheless. I will restate it now just for the record:
I've watched this forum for quite some time and never made a comment. I probably won't again but it has been very instructive.
It is clear that Humber's only benefit in this discussion is to keep the thread going during lulls. No amount of data, empirical evidence, formulas, math, physics, etc. is ever going to convince him of anything. He is the living breathing epitome of "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!" I truly do not believe I have ever witnessed a human who thinks they know something about physics that can be so wrong, or at least so severely misguided, in almost every post. To his credit, he has given many the opportunity to clarify concepts so that almost anyone can understand how this works.
One can quickly see that I didn't live up to my statement about "probably commenting again." and I also stated I was a jerk in not living up to my sincere attempt to not be in anyway condescending or arrogant.
I believe that the statement about Humber still stands on its merit but my opinion of Humber's beliefs are not important in the pursuit of science, education, and understanding.
So I don't qualify as noble person (much less a saint) but I have tried to show patience and illustrate common misunderstandings with care as I greatly appreciate when others give me the same courtesy.
I will say I also tried to give any reasoned argument a fair listen and I attempted to learn from them (and indeed I did!).
When I first read about the achievement of DDWFTTW, I was completely skeptical and must admit that my initial reaction was disbelief, disagreement, and thinking that Spork and JB were great practical jokers and had hoodwinked us all.
Even though, I was completely skeptical, I read further and still, admittedly slow, wrestled with the physics that the coherent posters were stating, as this is a very interesting topic to me. When I believed I actually understood the physics of the device and that it was completely credible and achievable, I thought it appropriate to celebrate the victory pushing the accomplished one level deeper into the heretofore unachieved. I overcame my initial skepticism because the arguments were well reasoned, the record credible, and the Spork and JB sincere.
I was not surprised at all that many posters expressed my doubts and ignorance. What I was surprised at was that some could become so entrenched in their beliefs that they could not see obvious and reasonable arguments as illustrative. The community gave absurd levels of their time to convince via reasoned argument. Many expressed common levels of aloofness but most came to understand the achievement and how it was accomplished.
Most breakthroughs are accompanied with extreme levels of disbelief and demand proof. Reasonably so, but a level of polity would not have hurt anyone, including me when asking the achievers to justify their victory.
To Spork and JB's credit, they took on all comers who simply asked politely to be enlightened. To my discredit, it is not clear, even to me, that I would have been appropriately diffident if not for reading all the previous discussions. To this I claim guilty and am trying to take this as a lesson in humility.
Having said this, it is clear that Humber's training in modern or classical physics is lacking but that should not be held against him as that is the predominant way of the world.
I simply desire that I can go forward with humility to gain a little light in areas where I am ignorant. I will continue to attempt to evidence this attitude with good humor and a shared desire to learn more.
With Regards,
WindGrins
Correcting the Record
Humber,
You state:
And we have Spork now saying the balloons take no time to accelerate.
That follows on from balloons having no potential energy and that cars moving in opposite directions have zero relative velocity when they pass
Since this (in blue) was in answer to my question, I feel somewhat obligated to set the record straight. Spork stated the exact opposite of what you accuse him of and here's his quote:
I see no reason to defend the other two statements as they are correct as stated by Spork-not exactly as they are stated above.
WindGrins
Humber,
You state:
And we have Spork now saying the balloons take no time to accelerate.
That follows on from balloons having no potential energy and that cars moving in opposite directions have zero relative velocity when they pass
Since this (in blue) was in answer to my question, I feel somewhat obligated to set the record straight. Spork stated the exact opposite of what you accuse him of and here's his quote:
I see no reason to defend the other two statements as they are correct as stated by Spork-not exactly as they are stated above.
WindGrins
Last edited:
recursive prophet
Graduate Poster
Really? I must have missed that. Can you post a link or give me an idea on about what page I might find that explanation?That's not correct ... as has been explained in this thread more than once.
-- Roger
@Windgrins: Excellent post before your last one. You should read some of Humber's exchanges with uncool at TR. I'll post a link to a couple. Be curious to see what you make of them.
Last edited:
Actually he promised it many months (years?) before that.
- Status