Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

I Ratant · Mar 31, 2011

recursive prophet said:
@I Ratant: Could you post a link where I could get more info on the plastic carts? Thanx.

It is intriguing that despite so many having fun with this topic, some seem motivated to make comments which are clearly brinking the-attack ideas not posters-civility rules here. The subject has been put on mod-stat 3 times already. A record? Wonder why anyone would want to unequivocally tinkle on the parade and terminate all discussion?

.
The freewheeling and driven cart I've assembled are cut from 30"x40" 1/4" foam board, with the parts found in my scrap toy airplane boxes, with the drive wheels for the driven cart made from 3/32" plywood, with celluloid flanges from old model boxes.
They're roughly 10" long, 9-1/2" wide, and about 5" tall.
The ground wheels are from electric ARFs.
The props are just a couple of the many I've accumulated over the years for the electric planes.
The orange prop is a 9x4.7 GWS tractor prop, the black prop is a Wattage 10x6 pusher prop.
The drive string is kevlar cord from a Sullivan pull-pull setup kit, with a couple of music wire guides to get the cord aligned with each drive wheel.
.
I had to buy the foam board. :boggled:

recursive prophet · Mar 31, 2011

I Ratant said:
.I had to buy the foam board.

Wow. I didn't realize you made those carts. Awesome. We who can merely observe salute you.

D'rok · Mar 31, 2011

I Ratant said:
Oh, I didn't realize that.
OK.

Indeed. You are wilfully choosing to misunderstand the cart. Unlike Humber, however, you are perfectly capable of actual comprehension. One wonders why you resist.

spork · Mar 31, 2011

recursive prophet said:
For any interested in the history of this epic cyber-strand, here's an index. It all began here at JREF. Recursion Rules!

It most definitely did not start here on JREF. That just happens to be where RCP got on the bus. JB and I had been discussing it years earlier on a kitesurfing site and an R/C heli site.

D'rok said:
Indeed. You are wilfully choosing to misunderstand the cart. Unlike Humber, however, you are perfectly capable of actual comprehension. One wonders why you resist.

Ratant showed up with a condescending and disapproving attitude about how little we'd accomplished and how pointless it all is. So now he has to show us some really great and important accomplishments by making foam carts that - wait for it... go downwind slower than the wind.

I Ratant · Mar 31, 2011

recursive prophet said:
Wow. I didn't realize you made those carts. Awesome. We who can merely observe salute you.

So have you learned anything relative to ddw... with these carts? Sorry if this has been covered before. Haven't had time to catch up, but I've seen some good points/questions you posed earlier. Real hard for me to get my mind around all this and I've been at it over 2 years.
.
I gave up on getting anything sensible about this some years back.
( for much the same reason as seen here.)
The recent resurgence in interest with several videos of the operation helped in firming up my understanding of the situation.
It's the wheels that move the cart, with the prop acting as a sail... up until the downwind speed rises above the wind speed, and the carts continue to accelerate.
I think at this point the wheels are still doing most of the driving, but the prop is beginning to add thrust which takes some of the load off the drive wheels.
Before that speed the flow through the prop is retardant, as the freewheeler shows the prop wants to turn in the opposite direction as seen in the video where the chain slips.
Sadly the Antelope Valley Wind Festival seems to be diminishing below the usual gale forces it's been all of this year.
Placing the two side by side facing downwind the freewheeling prop cart takes off nicely. The wheel driver just sits there. There is friction in the drive system the freewheeler doesn't have.
If the wind comes back up.... fat chance that won't.. I may take the two up to the Tailwinds field for simultaneous runs, in both wind directions.
A gear drive between the drive wheel axle and the prop shaft is probably less frictiony, but I don't have any parts that will let me do that.
The principle would be the same.

spork · Mar 31, 2011

I Ratant said:
I gave up on getting anything sensible about this some years back.
( for much the same reason as seen here.)

You mean because you're a condescending know-it-all that would rather talk about stuff you don't understand rather than ask questions and actually consider the answers? Fair enough I suppose.

The recent resurgence in interest with several videos of the operation helped in firming up my understanding of the situation.

You know what would really help? Asking questions and showing genuine interest rather than insulting the people that can explain it. Have you noticed how people that ask genuine questions get very detailed genuine answers?

I think at this point the wheels are still doing most of the driving, but the prop is beginning to add thrust which takes some of the load off the drive wheels.

Actually, at that point the wheels are doing none of the driving - much like every single other point. As has been explained to you 10 times in the last several pages.

Subduction Zone · Mar 31, 2011

spork said:
It most definitely did not start here on JREF. That just happens to be where RCP got on the bus. JB and I had been discussing it years earlier on a kitesurfing site and an R/C heli site.

Ratant showed up with a condescending and disapproving attitude about how little we'd accomplished and how pointless it all is. So now he has to show us some really great and important accomplishments by making foam carts that - wait for it... go downwind slower than the wind.

Well the JREF did give us one gift. It is the site where the topic picked up humber, sort of like herpes, humber is forever.

Michael C · Mar 31, 2011

I Ratant said:
I gave up on getting anything sensible about this some years back.
( for much the same reason as seen here.)

There's been lots of very sensible explanations posted right here at JREF. Many of us will be happy to go over them again.

The recent resurgence in interest with several videos of the operation helped in firming up my understanding of the situation.

You'll need to loosen up that understanding again, because you're getting a very important point wrong:

It's the wheels that move the cart, with the prop acting as a sail... up until the downwind speed rises above the wind speed, and the carts continue to accelerate.

No, from the very beginning the wheels and prop are in opposition. Several of us have been explaining this to you, but you're not listening.

ThinAirDesigns · Mar 31, 2011

humber said:
You went to the trial without knowing the rules?

Yes.

The BB can ~triple WS DDW upon demand. The rules of measurement weren't going to change this.

JB

mender · Mar 31, 2011

ThinAirDesigns said:
humber said:

You went to the trial without knowing the rules?

Click to expand...

Yes.

The BB can ~triple WS DDW upon demand. The rules of measurement weren't going to change this.

JB

That's fair; humber has been arguing about physics and the cart for over two years without knowing anything.

recursive prophet · Mar 31, 2011

spork said:
It most definitely did not start here on JREF. That just happens to be where RCP got on the bus. JB and I had been discussing it years earlier on a kitesurfing site and an R/C heli site.

You mentioned that what-just 2 weeks ago Chief? Read my post again and click on the term "cyber-strand if you aren't familiar with what I meant by it.

Perhaps MythBusters could be said to be where it really began, as my_wan moved the discussion here after you got the thread there locked twice. It then moved to RDF, and after Humber was gone it died and moved to TR. The latest has been on RatSkep, which died soon after Humber left there.

A thread where many of those involved go en mass to continue a debate is what I call a cyber-strand. It connects them. I never said the DWWFTTW discussion began here. I kind of thought Jack Goodman's video on Youtube was where that really got started on the net. Do you know the dates when Jack's cart first appeared? When was yours on the kite surfing site?

spork · Mar 31, 2011

recursive prophet said:
You mentioned that what-just 2 weeks ago Chief? Read my post again and click on the term "cyber-strand if you aren't familiar with what I meant by it.

Perhaps MythBusters could be said to be where it really began, as my_wan moved the discussion here after you got the thread there locked twice. It then moved to RDF, and after Humber was gone it died and moved to TR. The latest has been on RatSkep, which died soon after Humber left there.

A thread where many of those involved go en mass to continue a debate is what I call a cyber-strand. It connects them. I never said the DWWFTTW discussion began here. I kind of thought Jack Goodman's video on Youtube was where that really got started on the net. Do you know the dates when Jack's cart first appeared? When was yours on the kite surfing site?

wrong

humber · Mar 31, 2011

jduffy77 said:
Humber, everyone knows you are lying about your toy cart. You don't even seem like you're trying very hard at the moment.

If you think I am lying, even after I have given you the rudiments of its operation, yet you can't say why even that is wrong, the more complex remainder ( the control mechanism) is going to fly even higher over your head, isn't it?

humber · Mar 31, 2011

AvalonXQ said:
Wait, so he's still claiming that cart at velocity X, wind at velocity X, ground at velocity 0 is different than cart at velocity 0, wind at velocity 0, ground at velocity -X?
Can he really not do a basic velocity transform? What does he think is different between the two scenarios?

Carteers think that because they can subtract 20 from 3 numbers, that makes them real clever. Most people think that their cars go over the road, and not that the road moves under the car. They are right.
The "brain teaser" aspect, and all the mock-Einstein, are strap lines to sell the idea to those who like to think they are smarter than "most people"

spork · Mar 31, 2011

humber said:
I was lying. I don't actually have a cart.

...

humber · Mar 31, 2011

spork said:
...

JB dropped by earlier. You know he can't resist an opportunity to use the word "liar". He has a rack in the basement.

You said that you and NALSA had a good laugh over the e-mails I sent them, but I sent none. Can you explain why you said that?

I Ratant has conducted some experiments that show the prop acts as a sail, and best when allowed to rotate. You may not agree, but can you describe how connecting the rotating prop to the wheels improves upon that?

spork · Mar 31, 2011

Subduction Zone said:
Well the JREF did give us one gift. It is the site where the topic picked up humber, sort of like herpes, humber is forever.

Frankly, I think that's a little unfair. This is the sort of thing that gives herpes a bad name. Given the choice, I think you'd have to agree you'd rather live with herpes for the rest of your life.

humber · Mar 31, 2011

temporalillusion said:
Lol nice!

Don't anyone ask him if a compressed spring weighs more than an uncompressed one.

It's an argument about the fact the strain occurs in 3 dimensions. Not put to A.T. of course, but the only Carteer who has any mathematical skill. A.T did not understand or follow the argument, so took the drawing at face value. He likes to post it.
I took it from an earlier mentioned wiki reference, because it was easier to cut and paste that, than draw a new one. Understand stress concentration, and how that works in load cells?

recursive prophet · Mar 31, 2011

spork said:
Frankly, I think that's a little unfair. This is the sort of thing that gives herpes a bad name. Given the choice, I think you'd have to agree you'd rather live with herpes for the rest of your life.

How about AIDs Chief? Wow! I mean, once you have herpes it's for life. You can't just ignore it, as you could humber.

Is there something you're not telling us? Is he perhaps holding member of your family hostage or something and forcing you to read his lies every day?

humber · Mar 31, 2011

A.T. said:
Well, maybe what happened was:

guy: Look at my new microwave oven

humber: What? You believe in over-unity?

guy: Ahm... what?

humber: Where is the energy coming from?

guy: From the wall plug, I guess...

humber: Yeah right! The magical "wall energy".

guy: But it works fine. Look, it heated up my food....

humber: That was poor experimental control. I knew you would make that typical beginner error.

guy: Hmmm... tastes good

humber: You are fooling yourself, just to avoid admitting, that you fell for that microwave mumbo jumbo...

and so on...

Poor A.T forgets that the power at the wall socket doesn't start there.
You will be surprised at the number of systems engineers who think it does, and then wonder why the equipment room gets hot.

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