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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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I don't quite follow you - are you saying that the test measured the cart's speed during a period of 10 seconds and compared it to the windspeed averaged over 30 minutes?

No. The wind will contain sequences of gusts that are statistical.
They can be exploited to drive the cart.

The run is so short that there will certainly be patterns that will ensure there is a high enough energy density to allow a short term run over WS.

A cart that can store energy can achieve transient above WS speeds, but not steady state. Any cart that uses that technique, will fail once it runs out of stored energy, so the run must be long enough to allow for that.
But, the wind can equally be that storage over a short period. A longer run, where the energy is averaged, will see the cart fail.
By waiting, or even estimating when the next burst will appear, the cart can select for that energy.
 
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By waiting, or even estimating when the next burst will appear, the cart can select for that energy.

I think this cart should be nominated for membership of The Royal Society and The Royal Association of Clairvoyants.
 
I think this cart should be nominated for membership of The Royal Society and The Royal Association of Clairvoyants.

Wind patterns can be cyclic, just like the rain. If it has rained, but stopped, then you may be familiar enough with the pattern to know that you have enough time to walk somewhere before it begins again.
But, the cart need not do that, because all failures are forgiven. Just take it over. Push it if necessary.
The chart shows you one such pattern that stops just after the run.
All that, and the length of the run, was known from the previous test.
Those that have been following this from the start, are fully aware that the claim was for steady-state. Bauer achieved 40s above WS. In this forum I described a cart that could exploit wind patterns to do the same.
So, Spork knowingly tested the cart where steady state would not be achieved.

And the case for the pushing influencing the record speed is watertight.
 
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No. The wind will contain sequences of gusts that are statistical.
They can be exploited to drive the cart.

The run is so short that there will certainly be patterns that will ensure there is a high enough energy density to allow a short term run over WS.

A cart that can store energy can achieve transient above WS speeds, but not steady state. Any cart that uses that technique, will fail once it runs out of stored energy, so the run must be long enough to allow for that.
But, the wind can equally be that storage over a short period. A longer run, where the energy is averaged, will see the cart fail.
By waiting, or even estimating when the next burst will appear, the cart can select for that energy.

Gusts that are statistical?

I think you are saying that the cart might speed up during a gust and then coast when the wind drops, thereby recording a higher speed during the low windspeed than would be achieved in a steady wind. Is that what you mean?

The evidence of that would be that the cart would slow down during the measured run, wouldn't it? The chart shows the cart continuing to accelerate thoughout the measured period.
 
...the case for the pushing influencing the record speed is watertight.

Pardon me for doubting that, but the means by which the cart reaches the speed at which it begins the measured section is irrelevant because it continues to accelerate throughout the measured period.

Since it is only powered by the wind during that time, and it continuously accelerates, plainly it had not yet reached its steady state speed. In other words it would only be logical to infer that whatever its final steady-state speed may be, it must be greater than the measured speed.
 
This is a video showing that the rotor on Spork's cart turns CCW when placed before a fan, so like an upwind turbine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nudBjrOF3LE

That CCW rotation would drive the cart towards the fan, but, the rotor is designed to work at high speed, so is inefficient.
But the direct force on the cart, blows it away from the fan as a sail would. It is slow, because the rotor drives the cart towards the fan, while the direct drag drives away from it. The two forces oppose, but the direct drag is larger,so the cart moves slowly away from the fan. That is why the cart often fails to start when ddw. It's failed a upwind cart, that gets better when the wind is not ddw. ( Turbine power is reduced as cos^3 from the axis.)
The chart shows that the cart is better when not ddw.

This guy's rotor is more efficient, so the cart moves towards the fan.
http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1811/9ih.mp4
http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/6015/ql0.mp4

Okay. One more time. Amazingly enough, humber actually has part of it right (the part that if the propeller was free to be turned by the wind, it would spin in a direction that would drive the cart upwind). What he fails to understand is that, once the cart is moving downwind (whether started by wind drag or pushed), the wheels drive the propeller in the opposite direction that the wind is trying to spin it, and the propeller generates the thrust that allows the cart to move downwind faster than the wind. Humber simply cannot grasp how this could work, and invents all kinds of nonsense to explain why what has been clearly demonstrated to be true is actually false.
 
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Gusts that are statistical?
Yes. They happens for a wide range of reasons. Ivanpah is a dry lake bed surrounded by low hills. As the wind behind those hills builds up pressure, it spills onto the plain. There can be several streams from many directions that mix to produce variations of speed and direction. In cities, buildings can do the same. There can be changes of 20m/s in a second because of that effect. The lake is hot because it is open, and the Sun can easily add 400W sq meter, and winds sheer over that. The BB is tall, so can dip into that stream, while at ground level, there is not much going on.
There are more general effects that can be estimated by standard deviation, if gust length is known. Meteorology is complicated. I may write that up, but the vane dynamics is more important.

Ivanpah is suitable for testing Greenbird, because it is up to the pilot to choose the best course. It's his loss if he doesn't. But ddw is specific, and that means the wind must be specific to meet that situation. It isn't.

NALSA have no experience of ddw testing, nor the appropriate instruments.
The instruments promised for the cart, including pitot tubes, never eventuated, and only the GPS was fitted to the cart and the rest on the CV, leaving huge scope for error. When Spork wanted to wager me, I said that pitot tubes must be used, along with high speed data capture. It was not a whim.

I think you are saying that the cart might speed up during a gust and then coast when the wind drops, thereby recording a higher speed during the low windspeed than would be achieved in a steady wind. Is that what you mean?
Partially. The wind gusts are moving air mass, so that influences the energy density over a short period. the mass of the cart will integrate the energy form the gusts. Mass makes for poor acceleration, but allows for big storage.
Acceleration is not an issue - it went fast enough to do the job - but would be if competing against other carts.

The question of ddw is one of thermodynamics, and that is why it is disputed. The claim was that >WS would be achieved in a wind tunnel, and that it more like a closed system, but Ivanpah is far from that. It's not much of a challenge to gain energy, if the wind is energetic.

The evidence of that would be that the cart would slow down during the measured run, wouldn't it? The chart shows the cart continuing to accelerate throughout the measured period.

Well, the TM does not predict constant acceleration, so the model and the cart don't match, but the wind changes for the entire run, so why wouldn't it accelerate? That is no substitute for steady state. A great deal of the details of the test were held back. Had I known of them, I would have objected, but all were denied that choice.

Harold Bricer produced a calculation that said the cart would reach 50-60% of WS at best, in a steady tailwind. That is what happens.
That can be seen from the chart. At the start, the wind travels in the same direction for about 10 seconds (the CV is moving about so the data before that is lost), but the cart does not accelerate until the wind changes South.
If the speed data is differentiated, it can be seen that acceleration falls when the cart approaches ddw, as the wind changes in that sinus pattern.

The Jenkin's video shows the cart doing much the same. It travels at 2m/s for quite a long time, but takes off when the wind changes.
That is evidence that Harold is right, but it is not seen as an outcome.
 
Pardon me for doubting that, but the means by which the cart reaches the speed at which it begins the measured section is irrelevant because it continues to accelerate throughout the measured period.
Yes, but isn't it a record? If you wanted to mount a challenge, would you be happy that the current holder pushed the cart to 40% of that record, if pushing did not benefit your cart to the same extent? How do could NALSA meet objection? The top speed is not that much of interest to skeptics. DDW and steady state are.

Since it is only powered by the wind during that time, and it continuously accelerates, plainly it had not yet reached its steady state speed. In other words it would only be logical to infer that whatever its final steady-state speed may be, it must be greater than the measured speed.

Yes, but that is a matter of the wind. The trial is unrepeatable, so not scientifically valid. There should at least be averaged trials, including the bad.
Steady-state also proves there is no storage. NALSA have not eliminated all the possibilities, but only considered the angular KE of the prop. There are two other mechanisms that could allow for storage, or more likely accumulation, by means other than the prop.
But it is the short term wind that is the certainly a problem for the claim.
 
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It's not much of a challenge to gain energy, if the wind is energetic.

LMAO, no kidding?

And still talking about Ivanpah, jeeez. Well it's his loss for actually using the ignore button, it's becoming apparent that he actually did.
 
No only that, now he is claiming that there were wind speeds of on the order of 60 mph at El Mirage and 90 mph at Ivanpah, according to this quote:
Harold Bricer produced a calculation that said the cart would reach 50-60% of WS at best, in a steady tailwind. That is what happens.
We know spork's speeds at those two locales about 45 mph at Ivanpah and at least 28 mph at El Mirage. Funny, it did not seem to be blowing anywhere near those speeds in the videos of the runs we can see.
 
No only that, now he is claiming that there were wind speeds of on the order of 60 mph at El Mirage and 90 mph at Ivanpah, according to this quote:
We know spork's speeds at those two locales about 45 mph at Ivanpah and at least 28 mph at El Mirage. Funny, it did not seem to be blowing anywhere near those speeds in the videos of the runs we can see.

Actually the first day at El Mirage, the Jenkins video in fact, the cart got up to ~54 MPH.
 
That's true. I don't have all of the data at hand. I knew the official record run was nowhere near the fastest. It was the one with the best evidence that they beat the wind, and very handily at that. And of course there are still people out there who are willing to lie and misrepresent what that data states.
 
Ivanpah is a dry lake bed surrounded by low hills. It's been remarked several times now that the record-setting run was conducted somewhere else. Is that not so?

The wind gusts are moving air mass, so that influences the energy density over a short period. When the wind blows harder it carries more energy. I think I get that.
the mass of the cart will integrate the energy form the gusts. i.e. It'll accelerate. Got that too.
Mass makes for poor acceleration, but allows for big storage. Inertia, momentum. OK. Carry on.

Acceleration is not an issue - it went fast enough to do the job - but would be if competing against other carts. Yes. It went fast enough to do the job. It went faster than the following wind, by a large margin. And when measured, it was still accelerating. The amount of acceleration is not an issue, but the fact that it was accelerating is an issue. It was travelling downwind, faster than the wind, and the wind was making it speed up even more. The only points in dispute, so far as I can see, are whether its instrumentation was good enough (which I know nothing about) and whether its "directly downwind" heading was sufficiently direct. So far as I can see from the information presented, when the course closed to within a couple of degrees of being directly downwind, the craft continued to accelerate. That looks like pretty good evidence to me.

The question of ddw is one of thermodynamics I really don't think it is.
My comments in red.
 
If you wanted to mount a challenge, would you be happy that the current holder pushed the cart to 40% of that record, if pushing did not benefit your cart to the same extent?

Presuming the challenge was to go DDW at a greater multiple of windspeed, then I would have no objection to a competitor being pushed to any starting speed they liked so long as, when measured, their craft was maintaining its speed or accelerating to prove that windpower was sustaining its speed.
 
One thing you have to understand about humber, there is absolutely no way to convince him. He keeps talking about a wind tunnel test, but a) he knows full way that they don't make wind tunnels long enough, not even for the model sized cart. b) if one were built long enough, he'd make excuses about it being too long, that eddies would form, claiming the bernoulli effect would accelerate the air, make up stuff that is even more totally off the wall etc. etc.
 
One thing you have to understand about humber, there is absolutely no way to convince him. He keeps talking about a wind tunnel test, but a) he knows full way that they don't make wind tunnels long enough, not even for the model sized cart. b) if one were built long enough, he'd make excuses about it being too long, that eddies would form, claiming the bernoulli effect would accelerate the air, make up stuff that is even more totally off the wall etc. etc.
His excuse for the wind tunnel would be the same as for the treadmill:

It is not powered by the wind, but by a motor.
 
One thing you have to understand about humber, there is absolutely no way to convince him.

I met humber before, when I was a newbie here. I think he's open to reason: I thought he was mistaken about something and we had a nice chat about a graph he made and then suddenly he stopped posting and didn't post anything for about 15 months. I may be wrong and goodness knows I wasn't the only one involved in the conversation but I think that might be his way of showing he was convinced.
 
I would love to see some posts of humber from before DDWFTTW. He started half way reasonable, but he has gone further and further around the bend arguing this topic. He posts far more than anyone else, including spork who started the topic. His total number of posts on it is truly amazing.
 
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