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Merged DDWFTTW in a “Real” Wind

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Great idea!

No, I changed the way I expressed the same point.


No you can't quantify that, and it still wouldn't deny that boats can gain from tacking, and so can the cart; and it is a fact that turbine force falls as the cube of the cosine away from the axis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine_design
Yawing
Modern large wind turbines are typically actively controlled to face the wind direction measured by a wind vane situated on the back of the nacelle. By minimizing the yaw angle (the misalignment between wind and turbine pointing direction), the power output is maximized and non-symmetrical loads minimized. However, since the wind direction varies quickly the turbine will not strictly follow the direction and will have a small yaw angle on average. The power output losses can simply be approximated to fall with cos3(yaw angle).

You are claiming that the cart performs worse when not ddw, when the contrary is true.

Yes, I love this theory. This is why we mount airplane propellers on multi-engine planes at an extreme angle from facing forward. It seems with this idea if we put them on the end of the wings facing outward we maximize power!

(And yes, on single engine planes I realize they are slightly off directly forward due to torque effects and slipstream twist at cruise speed!)

WindGrins:D
 
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Wow, this almost to new humberism level, but not quite. There is no tailwind at the propeller, unless you are actually using that term as a pilot would. In which case, absolutely right, and it is that tailwind and the reduced power requirement because of it, that enables the cart to work.
When the wind is not following a ddw path, there is always a component of the wind that can power the cart. That is the basis of all fttw sailing.

That component is not within a ddw claim, no matter how you try and turn it on its head. That wind will be incident upon the propeller, and can affect its performance to the detriment of benefit of the cart. It is to the benefit as all charts show. The highest rates of acceleration are when the wind is not ddw.

Forces are frame invariant, as is rotational power.
Blah...blah... you are not in a position to make edicts concerning frames of reference, and the existence of angular motion rules out inertial frames.
It is a complex topic, that is more than simple-minded "thought experiments" of "backwards" roads.

And the F is the same in all frames.
For our purposes, Newton holds. If they were differences of force between frames, that would not be the case.
The cart experiences force F, as a result of the headwind. That is met via the wheel, by the same force at the ground, and so power is F*Vcart.

It is quite clear that if you dip your hand into a river, the force against it is related to the velocity of the water relative to the bank. The work required to walk along the river bank while doing so, is related to that force, and hand's velocity relative to the bank. Same with the cart and the headwind.

The power is provided by thrust from the prop, and that drag power must come from it directly, and not just the force derived as you and Spork have incorrectly done.

Fault this, or concede.

F_Drag = K*Vhead^2
Power_Drag = K*Vhead^3

Pcart = K*Vhead^2*Vcart.


Yep, it's just too bad that the drag the airfoil sections produce always leave them with a net force pointing to the rear. And I have done the polars for those airfoils, and I know this for a fact.
Total nonsense, and you are far from being an aerodynamicist.

On the one hand, you make the claim that the prop gains energy from the wind, but somehow want to ignore the fact that it spends half of its time in wind that considerably faster than recorded. Simple exponential gradients do not apply in variable winds.
The vane shows that the wind is constantly and very rapidly, changing. There will be air currents in 3 dimensions, and the cart can exploit both horizontal and vertical gradients. A balloon in such winds would be seen to rise and fall in response to the vertical gradients.


You can assert this all you want, but until you can actually explain it, it remains fantasy.
I don't need to, because the burden of proof is upon the claimant. Why else would trials have been necessary? But, the trial data shows that the cart is better when not ddw, and NALSA's Steve Smith thinks crosswinds and gradients may be power the cart.

The cart's ddw math fails, and that is why you are trying to introduce spurious claims to cover the holes. Working the data is no substitute for a failed theory, and may no stand on its own.

There is no turbine torque above wind speed. only the power demand of the prop.
Then no tailwind at all. Good. That leaves you with no power source, but any lateral component from the incident wind can power the cart. If there is incident wind from the rear, which is certainly the case as the wind data shows, its effect on the turbine will be less than if the cart were ddw or closer to ddw. The turbine force will fall as the cart moves away from ddw.
The power is related to cos^3 of the angle, and will be zero at 90 degrees. The lift force on the cart will increase, as the opposing turbine force falls.

That isn't the part that was wrong.
So far, bluff denial.

The record run clearly shows the cart's acceleration falling as the cart enters the record window. The acceleration levels are too small to be accurately recorded by the GT31, but what data there is, by no means shows that the cart is better ddw.
The acceleration data is derived from the GPS speed, and that has been shifted via filtering and/or other means, so that the drop in wind speed may be exploited. The wind changes later on in the window than is indicated by the acceleration derived from the cart's speed or other data averaged to match.

attachment.php


There is another Lycossys instrument that has improved capacities for measuring acceleration. The changes are extensive.

GT32-50 is a new instrument that combines GPS-Doppler with inertial navigation technology and magnetometer to enhance measurement of motion. GT32 contains two GPS-Doppler engines and 3-axis alias-free DC accelerometer sampling at 50Hz (providing 150 acceleration samples per second), all logging to SD card in compact binary format.

GT32 has evolved from GT31 and can be described as "9 instruments in one", all fitting into a single GT31 case and sharing one SD card. In essence, an additional hardware module has been fitted inside GT31 to extend its capabilities. This extra module comprises an autonomous gps-Doppler engine, three DC accelerometers 3D magnetic compass and a thermometer.

GT32 is aimed for people who want to measure jumps and acrobatics or carry multiple GT31 units in their effort to improve motion measurement accuracy. GT32 is cheaper and more compact than two GT31 instruments. In addition, GT32 offers possibilities that are beyond reach of a pair of GT31 units, such as higher bandwidth and detection of angular orientation (yaw, pitch, roll angles) of a moving craft, or in sport for example.
 

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Yes, I love this theory. This is why we mount airplane propellers on multi-engine planes at an extreme angle from facing forward.
The "we" is definitely not you.

It seems with this idea if we put them on the end of the wings facing outward we maximize power!
(And yes, on single engine planes I realize they are slightly off directly forward due to torque effects at cruise speed!)
WindGrins:D

Then you will need to ask teacher if the props are turbines. It would certainly be a good idea to turn them away from the stream in that case.
Every time you make such (supposedly) ironic parallels, you do nothing other than to show poor logical skill.
 
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a implies b which means a implies not b!

The "we" is definitely not you.

Then you will need to ask teacher if the props are turbines. It would certainly be a good idea to turn them away from the stream in that case.
Every time you make such (supposedly) ironic parallels, you do nothing other than to show poor logical skill.

Humber (sort of):"Modern large wind turbines are typically actively controlled to face the wind direction measured by a wind vane situated on the back of the nacelle. By minimizing the yaw angle (the misalignment between wind and turbine pointing direction), the power output is maximized and non-symmetrical loads minimized.The power output losses can simply be approximated to fall with cos3(yaw angle)."

Humber (actually):"You are claiming that the cart performs worse when not ddw, when the contrary is true.
"

I'm totally amused that you place the two paragraphs next to each other which say the exact opposite things and use the first to justify the second point.

Even though they are discussing wind turbines and not propellers, they do share this particular characteristic that the author states. And yet he states the exact opposite of your next sentence.

And somehow you see my logic as faulty???

Windgrins
 
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Humber (sort of):Modern large wind turbines are typically actively controlled to face the wind direction measured by a wind vane situated on the back of the nacelle. By minimizing the yaw angle (the misalignment between wind and turbine pointing direction), the power output is maximized and non-symmetrical loads minimized.The power output losses can simply be approximated to fall with cos3(yaw angle).

You are claiming that the cart performs worse when not ddw, when the contrary is true.

I'm totally amused that you place the two paragraphs next to each other which say the exact opposite things and use the first to justify the second point.

Windgrins


Let me help you join the dots.

(1) When the yaw angle is zero, the turbine's power output is at a maximum.

(2) Similarly, when the tailwind is ddw, and so the yaw is zero, the opposing turbine power is at a maximum.

(3) Ergo, the opposing turbine force falls when the cart is not ddw.
 
Really??? Really???

Then you will need to ask teacher if the props are turbines. It would certainly be a good idea to turn them away from the stream in that case.

Just so we are clear on this point, you are suggesting that wind turbines develop their maximum power turned at a 90 degree angle from the wind, that is, the wind not on the flat "face" of the turbine but the side?

WindGrins
 
Nearly 6000 posts and it is not understood that the wind is the power source!

Let me help you join the dots.

(1) When the yaw angle is zero, the turbine's power output is at a maximum.

(2) Similarly, when the tailwind is ddw, and so the yaw is zero, the opposing turbine power is at a maximum.

(3) Ergo, the opposing turbine force falls when the cart is not ddw.

Let me help you join the dots.

(1) the prop is not a turbine!

(2) the prop is not a turbine!

(3) the prop is not a turbine!

Ergo the propulsive force from the prop is maximized when it is DDW. The wind is where the power is coming from. The propeller needs to have the wind directly facing the rear of the cart for maximum effect. Nearly 6000 posts now and you have not figured this out yet???

ETA: Humber, I finally see your logic, when I'm taxiing in my Piper, a tailwind causes a "turbine effect" on my prop which makes my airplane taxi slower! The faster the tailwind, the slower my plane wants to go! I always wondered about this effect in the real world------NOT!!!!

Humber, please, please continue posting stuff like this at this rate! You are the absolute best witness for the defense that the carts work fantastically well!

WindGrins
 
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When the wind is not following a ddw path, there is always a component of the wind that can power the cart. That is the basis of all fttw sailing.
Wrong. There is no conventional Land yacht that can beat the wind within 20 degrees of DDW in a <= 15 knot wind.

That component is not within a ddw claim, no matter how you try and turn it on its head. That wind will be incident upon the propeller, and can affect its performance to the detriment of benefit of the cart. It is to the benefit as all charts show.
Incredibly wrong.

The highest rates of acceleration are when the wind is not ddw.
Wrong. The highest 1 second acceleration was .52 m/s2 at 12 degrees off and falling (in run 8), the second highest was .48 m/s2 at basically 0 degrees off DDW (near the end of that 20 second DDW period in run 5). And third highest was .47 m/s2 at 11 degrees off ddw in run 7.

The thing they all had in common, was that each case corresponded with the highest wind speed in their respective runs. And the highest acceleration had a wind speed of 22.5 MPH, the second highest had a wind speed of 21.5 MPH, and the third highest had a wind speed of 20.5 MPH.


Blah...blah... you are not in a position to make edicts concerning frames of reference, and the existence of angular motion rules out inertial frames.
It is a complex topic, that is more than simple-minded "thought experiments" of "backwards" roads.

In other words, FOR's confuse you.

For our purposes, Newton holds. If they were differences of force between frames, that would not be the case.
The cart experiences force F, as a result of the headwind. That is met via the wheel, by the same force at the ground, and so power is F*Vcart.

It is quite clear that if you dip your hand into a river, the force against it is related to the velocity of the water relative to the bank. The work required to walk along the river bank while doing so, is related to that force, and hand's velocity relative to the bank. Same with the cart and the headwind.

The power is provided by thrust from the prop, and that drag power must come from it directly, and not just the force derived as you and Spork have incorrectly done.

Fault this, or concede.

Oh nice, post a bunch of non sequitor mixed with double talk and then throw down the gauntlet.

Doesn't work that way, There is nothing there coherent enough to respond to. Or here either:

F_Drag = K*Vhead^2
Power_Drag = K*Vhead^3

Pcart = K*Vhead^2*Vcart.
That is gibberish.


Total nonsense, and you are far from being an aerodynamicist.
Wrong again. The pylons can only produce a net force in the apparent wind's "to" direction relative to longitudinal. Plain fact of life.
On the one hand, you make the claim that the prop gains energy from the wind, but somehow want to ignore the fact that it spends half of its time in wind that considerably faster than recorded. Simple exponential gradients do not apply in variable winds.
The vane shows that the wind is constantly and very rapidly, changing. There will be air currents in 3 dimensions, and the cart can exploit both horizontal and vertical gradients. A balloon in such winds would be seen to rise and fall in response to the vertical gradients.

All of which are irrelevant, they are straws at which you forever grasp.



I don't need to, because the burden of proof is upon the claimant. Why else would trials have been necessary? But, the trial data shows that the cart is better when not ddw,

No, it doesn't

and NALSA's Steve Smith thinks crosswinds and gradients may be power the cart.

You just keep repeating lies.

The cart's ddw math fails, and that is why you are trying to introduce spurious claims to cover the holes. Working the data is no substitute for a failed theory, and may no stand on its own.
The math is fine, it predicted a cart with better possible performance than a human controlled machine demonstrated. That would be what is called, normal.

Then no tailwind at all.

Wrong

That leaves you with no power source,
Wrong

but any lateral component from the incident wind can power the cart.

Wrong

If there is incident wind from the rear, which is certainly the case as the wind data shows, its effect on the turbine will be less than if the cart were ddw or closer to ddw. The turbine force will fall as the cart moves away from ddw.
The power is related to cos^3 of the angle, and will be zero at 90 degrees. The lift force on the cart will increase, as the opposing turbine force falls.

There is no turbine force above wind speed.




So far, bluff denial.

The record run clearly shows the cart's acceleration falling as the cart enters the record window. The acceleration levels are too small to be accurately recorded by the GT31, but what data there is, by no means shows that the cart is better ddw.
The acceleration data is derived from the GPS speed, and that has been shifted via filtering and/or other means, so that the drop in wind speed may be exploited. The wind changes later on in the window than is indicated by the acceleration derived from the cart's speed or other data averaged to match.

Wrong, and PRATT


Too bad the GT32 wasn't out last year, and as far as I can tell, still isn't available except to a few beta testers huh?
 
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Just so we are clear on this point, you are suggesting that wind turbines develop their maximum power turned at a 90 degree angle from the wind, that is, the wind not on the flat "face" of the turbine but the side?
WindGrins

"By minimizing the yaw angle (the misalignment between wind and turbine pointing direction), the power output is maximized and non-symmetrical loads minimized."

You are getting desperate. Where is that much esteemed credo that you so admire, of admitting when you have made a blunder?


Let me help you join the dots.

(1) the prop is not a turbine!

(2) the prop is not a turbine!

(3) the prop is not a turbine!
Wrong again. As Charles Platt has shown, and directly state in Bauer's paper,
a change in wind flow through the rotor, will reverse its direction. If you hope that the headwind above WS will drive the rotor CW ( "prop mode") then you are forced to accept that a tailwind will drive it the other way.

Upwind cart do exactly as the BB does. The rotor turbines into the wind, and the wheels turn into the wind. To achieve the necessary torque against wind that would drive it downwind, the rotor is geared down. More turns of the rotor, per turn of the wheel.
The BB is the contrary and so does get blown downwind, as the tailwind opposes the motion as best it can.

You have been caught with your pants down, and are hoping to bluff it out, with the presumed support of those in the bleechers.
 
Wrong. There is no conventional Land yacht that can beat the wind within 20 degrees of DDW in a <= 15 knot wind.
Yes there is.

Wrong. The highest 1 second acceleration was .52 m/s2 at 12 degrees off and falling (in run 8), the second highest was .48 m/s2 at basically 0 degrees off DDW (near the end of that 20 second DDW period in run 5). And third highest was .47 m/s2 at 11 degrees off ddw in run 7.
But not on that run. The best is .19ms-2. The record for that run is 0.8ms-2, when the cart was being pushed.
Other runs contain deliberate braking and change of direction to mask the obvious relationship of wind change and performance. The theory is junk, and the trial is a sham to cover the failure of a long failed joke.
Centuries of tinkerers attaching props to wheels and boat props.

attachment.php


The thing they all had in common, was that each case corresponded with the highest wind speed in their respective runs. And the highest acceleration had a wind speed of 22.5 MPH, the second highest had a wind speed of 21.5 MPH, and the third highest had a wind speed of 20.5 MPH.
No the cart reliably responds to wind change. Over and over again.

In other words, FOR's confuse you.
The math says I am right, and your response is defeat.

.............................................................
Ignored knee-jerk reactions to the other points

..............................................................

Too bad the GT32 wasn't out last year, and as far as I can tell, still isn't available except to a few beta testers huh?

But that is no excuse for using inadequate tools. Accelerometers are widely available, and the GT31 is not at all adequate.

You avoided the patent shifting of the cart speed relative to the wind change that tells of manipulation, and invalidates the record.

An example of instrument failure is one that reads slightly high, but the error is fixed, and not related to the magnitude. A base residual error.
For example, it may read 9ms-2 as 9.1ms-2: a small error at the scale. But, when the reading approaches zero, it may show +.05ms-2, when in reality the actual acceleration is -.05ms-2
 
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So Logical!

The BB is the contrary and so does get blown downwind, as the tailwind opposes the motion as best it can.

I love this one, that poor tailwind tries to slow the cart from blowing downwind FTTW but it just can't! And once the cart get's above WS, I suppose the headwind makes it now want to speed up even faster!

That is one contrary BB!

WindGrins
 
Yes, humber is never ever consistent, which is one of the reasons that the cart irritates the heck out of him.

humber, did you realize that the Blackbird always operates in propeller mode. The only time the rotor is not working as a propeller is when the cart is stationary. But then it is not working at that time. The cart does not suddenly change to propeller mode when it goes faster than the wind.
 
Yes there is.
Cite it.


But no on that run. The best is .19ms-2.
With the deviation 6 degrees. But that is not what you said, you encompassed all the data with the comment I responded to, that's called moving the goal posts, and it is dishonest.

No the cart reliably responds to wind change. Over and over again.
No it doesn't, I showed a chart where the accleration trended UP every time the wind trended toward DDW already.



The math says I am right, and your response is defeat.
The "mathy" looking stuff you posted shows something, but nothing about whether you are right.


But that is no excuse for using inadequate tools. Accelerometers are widely available, and the GT31 is not at all adequate.

It is plenty capable of showing an acceleration of 1.8 to 2.2 MPH over 10 seconds.

You avoided the patent shifting of the cart speed relative to the wind change that tells of manipulation, and invalidates the record.

There was no shifting to avoid.
 
While you're around, I just remembered something I read, and went back and checked.... the submission report says the prop is 17.5 feet. Is that correct? I have been using 16 feet all this time.

I believe it is 17.5'. We designed it to be 17', but then we didn't insert the masts into the hub quite as far as intended. We figured a bit more diameter couldn't hurt.


We've got one of those nearby. I've put a few hours in it. Lot's of fun - and a great answer to the problem of having too much money.



If your tandem jump instructor fell asleep, its usually a sign of experience.

Yes, but you're supposed to pro-rate the payment.

ETA: She was Amelia Reid of Amelia Reid Aviation at Reid/Hillview Airport in San Jose. You may have known her years ago! She's passed now. She was a great instructor and use to do an aerobatic routine at about 50 feet in a C150 aerobat. It was a good show of stored energy. Her love was her Pitts however. She was a hot-dog!

I did not know she'd passed. She was a great one.
 
I believe it is 17.5'. We designed it to be 17', but then we didn't insert the masts into the hub quite as far as intended. We figured a bit more diameter couldn't hurt.
You were right ;)

Yes, but you're supposed to pro-rate the payment.
In that case it was an optional part of the payment to my band for playing a gig at the drop zone, I think the sound man and I were the only ones that took them up on it.

I went on to do 4 more jumps before running out of money to devote to it.
 
I love this one, that poor tailwind tries to slow the cart from blowing downwind FTTW but it just can't! And once the cart get's above WS, I suppose the headwind makes it now want to speed up even faster!

That is one contrary BB!

WindGrins

Where is that much touted credo of admitting when you are wrong?
I imagine that you have no need of the kudos because of very local and prodigious production.

Instead of addressing the point which you hoped would be a source of ridicule, but blew up, you now want to change the topic. John Wayne would not approve of such unmanly behavior,.


And you have avoided acknowledging that below WS, where there is definitely a tailwind, the rotor impedes the cart.

That leaves open the question of how it gets to WS. If it can do that when below WS, and as a sail, it can do it above WS too.
There is never a time, not one second, when the cart is ddw. There is always, force and energy avialable from the crosswinds.
The cart was pushed to WS, and all that is needed is something to gather that same work from the wind. Hardly a technical conundrum.
 
I believe it is 17.5'. We designed it to be 17', but then we didn't insert the masts into the hub quite as far as intended. We figured a bit more diameter couldn't hurt.
I believe you guessed. Cant' hurt can it?
 
The Dertroit News. An iceboat from the late 18th Century.

The "mathy" looking stuff you posted shows something, but nothing about whether you are right.

Go ahead, fault it.

F_Drag = K*Vhead^2
Power_Drag = K*Vhead^3

Pcart = K*Vhead^2*Vcart.

And the rest of the post is contains the usual Oprah levels of blunt denial, in the face of lack of any substantial technical knowledge.
 
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I believe it is 17.5'. We designed it to be 17', but then we didn't insert the masts into the hub quite as far as intended. We figured a bit more diameter couldn't hurt.

Well you may have just got lucky, surely you would be really nudging, if not flirting with, the so called Profpangloss Limit.
 
The Dertroit News. An iceboat from the late 18th Century.
That is not a cite, and it is not a land yacht. And you provided no information about the wind.

Now again, a land yacht that can beat the wind while staying within 20 degrees of DDW in a <= 15 knot wind.


Go ahead, fault it.

F_Drag = K*Vhead^2
Right off the bat, the terms are not defined. But so far I have to guess that K = density * Cd * Frontal area. And if so, okay so far.... except the lack of definitions.

Power_Drag = K*Vhead^3
Only true in an FOR where the air is stationary. That is not an example of rotational power which would be invariant.

Pcart = K*Vhead^2*Vcart.

Wrong, Pcart doesn't even make sense. That would be Power_drag in an FOR where the ground is stationary, If I guessed right at all the undefined terms.

And all of it is completely irrelevant to the force analysis. F_Drag is F_Drag, period.
 
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