Split Thread David Gilroy: murder conviction goes to Scottish Review Commission

[Rolfe]

I think culpable homicide was the worst possible outcome if he had called an ambulance and explained what happened, putting the best gloss on it that he could.

I also think he believed that it wasn't possible to prosecute anyone for anything in respect of a death if the body was never found. A number of people seem to hold that false belief. He gambled that he would manage to conceal the body successfully (which he did), not knowing that he could still be prosecuted and what's more that hiding the body would significantly exacerbate the seriousness of the crime, against fessing up and letting the law take its course.

I gather there was some friction in the McKellar family and one of the twins seems to have told a girlfriend or something like that. The girlfriend then told the police. Although if "everybody knew" locally all along, one has to ask why nobody did that sooner. The take-home message from that one is that even if the area to be searched is quite manageable it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Getting back to Allt Broighleachan, I have done my level best to persuade the police to look there, up to and including meeting the SIO for a coffee in Straiton. He is absolutely convinced the body is in the R&BT area and nothing I said could shake that. He can't explain the Ardlui detour at all but doesn't seem that worried by it.

I was up that way for a couple of days break with a friend last month. We were in Glencoe and the weather forecast was for rain, and she was stressing like mad about getting away because "I have to go down that Loch Lomond road and it's awful and I hate it and I at least want to do it in the daylight." She was actually considering taking the long detour (for her, she lives in Shieldhall) round by Stirling to avoid it.

This is the road Gilroy took deliberately, just as dusk was really setting in, in 2010 which was before the road was improved to its present barely tolerable standard, and in the teeth of a socking great "Major roadworks at Ardlui, expect delays" notice at the junction. And for him, heading to Edinburgh, it added 20 miles to his journey. When he was already well past the time he should have been in Corstorphine, and the later he was the more suspicious it looked.

And the police don't think it's worth asking themselves why, even after I drew them a picture (literally) of why.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

If it is possible, could you schedule another coffee with the SIO and suggest that to rule out the Allt Broighleachan area as a disposal site the police could send in the dogs again.


Specifically the USAR dogs who previously helped in the search around the R&BT but did not find anything.

I think the dogs should search at :

1 - the stagnant pond

and

2 - in the forest across from the picnic bench over the river



DG left wet clothes on his cars passenger seat which left a water stain and the scratches on his hands could have occurred when Suzanne was fighting for her life but also when DG was moving through sharp foliage in order to get to the disposal site.

I don't know how much these dogs cost for a day but there is the possibility of using Gofundme to pay for them.

 

[Rolfe]

I might try writing again but I doubt if he'll be up for another meeting. At the one we had he mostly said I had some good points but he was right anyway.

I think it's too late for dogs. Getting on for 12 years now.

I am also interested in the "over the river" area. The river seems like an insuperable barrier, but was it, on that day? Depends on how high the burn was. Hugh Venables said it was unusually low when he was there but that was four weeks later. If he could have got her across then he could probably have relied on the burn deterring any search that did go up that way. I think your green circle is too wide though - once he was across I doubt if he'd have gone a lot further into the trees.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

DG expected to get to the junction at The Tarbet hotel at 2140 where he would turn his phone on because he wanted to fool the police into thinking he had arrived at Tarbet via the R&BT.

It normally takes 32 minutes to get from Tyndrum to Tarbet.

DG passed Tyndrum at 2108 so should have arrived at Tarbet at 2140.

But he did not take into account that the A82 from Crianlarich to Tarbet is a nightmare (even without traffic lights)

The timings of DG's journey from Tyndrum to Tarbet

2108 Tyndrum

It takes 7 minutes to get to Crianlarich

21.15 Crianlarich

It takes 12 minutes to get to Stuckindroin traffic lights

21.27 Stuckindroin traffic lights

Waiting at Stuckindroin traffic lights from 2127 to 2132 (5 minutes)

Takes 1 minute to get from Stuckindroin traffic lights to Pulpit Rock traffic lights

2133 Pulpit Rock traffic lights

Waiting at traffic lights from 2133 to 2136 (3 minutes) This is where he turned on his phone.

Takes 12 minutes to get from Pulpit Rock traffic lights to Tarbet junction at Tarbet hotel.

2148 Tarbet junction at Tarbet hotel

It then takes 96 minutes to get from the Tarbet hotel to the Tesco car park next to Corstorphine police station.

DG arrives at the Tesco car park at 2324 then he walks from there to the police station arriving at 2326.

DG's reasons for turning right at Crianlarich were that he thought it was quicker and it was raining.

The real reason could be that he wanted to fool the police into thinking he had arrived at Tarbet via the R&BT.

It might have worked but the amount of time he had to wait at traffic lights at Stuckindroin and Pulpit Rock meant he knew he was going to be later than he expected getting to Tarbet.

Whilst waiting at the traffic lights at Pulpit Rock he turns his phone on because he has realised that the police may have phoned him already and if not they will be soon (the police were expecting him in Edinburgh about 2130)

Whilst waiting at the Pulpit Rock traffic lights DG would know he would not get to Tarbet by 2140 and he may have thought it would be nearer 2200 before he gets to Tarbet.

If the police were to phone him and his phone went to voicemail as it was turned off that would not look good and the police would quickly become suspicious.

There is no other plausible explanation.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

If his plan had worked

If DG had got past Tarbet at 2140 and turned his phone on then he would tell the police he had
driven from Inveraray to Tarbet via Tyndrum.

If the police did not find any cctv at all (either on the A83 or the A85/A82) between Inveraray and Tarbet then the police would not know which route he took from Inveraray to Tarbet.

When the police find cctv on the A85/A82 route (at Tyndrum) then DG has not lied to the police.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Found some more aerial maps of the Allt Broighleachan picnic area from getmapping.com

This one was taken from 1999 to date.
I think "to date" means up to 2010 but the exact date in 2010 is unknown.



This one was taken in 2010.



This image is a copy of image above from 2010.



If he had crossed the river at A (carrying Suzanne) there is a high risk of being seen if a hiker appeared.
He may also have been seen if a hiker appeared on the path on the other side of the river (marked in orange)

If he did reverse into the black circle area and parked in among the trees then this area would be the only place in the vicinity where he could park and have some privacy for disposal.

Hiding there would also mean that he could be silent if he heard a hiker and hope they walk on without seeing his parked car.

He could possibly have reversed into the area in this photo marked by the black circle.



If he did reverse into the black circle area and parked in among the trees then in order to get into the trees to the right of C he would have to carry Suzanne up a steep embankment then cross the path and into the trees.
Too much effort, too much time and too much risk.

A better choice would be to cross the river at B.

He could have chosen not to cross the river and disposed of the body in the black circle area but the body could be stumbled upon at a later date.

If a hiker was in need of a pee then they would not cross the river at B to do this.

His best option would be to drive to the black circle area.
Reverse in and get his car into an area where it can't be seen from the picnic bench or the paths.
Open the boot and carry Suzanne over the river.
Conceal Suzanne in among the trees.
It is less likely to be stumbled upon in among the trees and from previous visits I noticed that there was some sharp foliage in there which could have caused the scratches on DG's hands and arms.

We think that he only disposed of the body in the afternoon and took everything else to Lochgilphead intending to dispose of everything else when he gets back to Edinburgh.

After taking the phone call from the Edinburgh police whilst at Lochgilphead DG realised he could not do that as he was advised by the police to go to Corstorphine police station in Edinburgh before going home so he could have returned to the trees over the river at B and disposed of everything else before passing Tyndrum at 2108.

If that's the case then metal detecting in that area may help.

This image shows that from the part of the forest marked in red is 0.11 miles in length which is the equivalent of 200 yards.



Once the weather improves (in April ?) I will return and check in among the trees over the river at B.

Also, I don't think he drove further on towards the deer fence.

If he was seen driving to the deer fence, whilst at the deer fence or on his way back from the deer fence that's it - game over.

If DG was at the picnic area at the Allt Broighleachan then he would have not wanted his car to be seen and not wanted anyone to see him. He would want to have some control of the timing of the body disposal process.

By concealing his car in among the trees at B this lessens the risk and enables him to pick his moment to carry the body over the river at B.

Going from the bridge at the B8074 to the picnic bench and back was a risk, he would have to drive slowly, probably in 2nd gear as there are a few blind bends.

But maybe he got lucky and nobody was using the paths that day. It was a Wednesday and it was not sunny.

Also, I am ruling out the Achnafalnich track as his car would have got covered in mud going up to the treeline and back down to the B8074.

He did not have time to jet wash it and it was not covered in mud when the police examined it.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Impounded car

 

[Alduma]

I think about this case every time I drive through Inveraray or Tyndrum.

Is there an official timeline of his cctv appearances and mobile pings available so I can revisit this?

 

[Alduma]

I think about this case every time I drive through Inveraray or Tyndrum.

Is there an official timeline of his cctv appearances and mobile pings available so I can revisit this?

Actually scratch that - I asked this before in this thread and you were all so helpful - I've just revisited the original links given at that time - thank you all.

 

[Rolfe]

We've got a pretty comprehensive record of it all, which I put together in a paper for convenience. I even got the SIO of the case to look at it, and met him, but he's very fixated on an alleged sighting of Gilroy somewhere in the R&BT area on the Wednesday afternoon. His objective at our meeting seemed to be to explain to me why I was wrong, rather than take on board the possibility that maybe he was wrong and should try a different theory.

I think the sighting that he pins so much on is a red herring. I don't think it was Gilroy. It makes no sense at all that it was. I think she's somewhere between Tyndrum, Bridge of Orchy and Dalmally. With the Allt Broighleachan track, the area around the Duncan Bàn memorial and the Succoth track the three serious possibilities. I favour the first of these, although I could be wrong obviously. I've been up there twice, once with another forum member, a grappling hook and a metal detector, and found nothing.

It's been fifteen years. What are the chances now? Pretty remote, I'd say.

(If you want a copy of my paper drawing all the information together, DM me.)

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Even if (and it's a big if) the eyewitness was correct and did see DG at the R&BT area on the Wednesday afternoon this does not automatically mean DG returned to the R&BT area in the evening for the disposal. The Police have one eyewitness and have spent a lot of time and money on the R&BT area searches, however, I have attached an image which shows that it is unlikely that the disposal site is between Inveraray and Tarbet.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Looking over previous posts, one annoying aspect of this case is why DG turned right at Crianlarich instead of continuing on the A85 to get back to Edinburgh. He passed The Green Welly at 2108 then 26 minutes later at 2134 he turned his phone on. He may not have driven the A82 road between Crianlarich and Tarbet before therefore he could have been passing Loch Lomond Holiday Park at 2134 and thought he was on the A82 south of Tarbet already and turned his phone on thinking he could misdirect the Police into thinking he had driven on the A83 from Inveraray.

 

[Alduma]

We've got a pretty comprehensive record of it all, which I put together in a paper for convenience. I even got the SIO of the case to look at it, and met him, but he's very fixated on an alleged sighting of Gilroy somewhere in the R&BT area on the Wednesday afternoon. His objective at our meeting seemed to be to explain to me why I was wrong, rather than take on board the possibility that maybe he was wrong and should try a different theory.

I think the sighting that he pins so much on is a red herring. I don't think it was Gilroy. It makes no sense at all that it was. I think she's somewhere between Tyndrum, Bridge of Orchy and Dalmally. With the Allt Broighleachan track, the area around the Duncan Bàn memorial and the Succoth track the three serious possibilities. I favour the first of these, although I could be wrong obviously. I've been up there twice, once with another forum member, a grappling hook and a metal detector, and found nothing.

It's been fifteen years. What are the chances now? Pretty remote, I'd say.

(If you want a copy of my paper drawing all the information together, DM me.)

I revisited your paper, it was good to refresh my memory and now, as then, I find your reasoning sound. On the Allt Broighleachan is (or was) a deep concrete trough drain across the road which I'm very acquainted with as I came a cropper on it returning from a mountain bike ride up there - certainly enough to damage a car's suspension and underside tray. I wonder if they checked places like that for paint fragments at the time? Given their focus on the R&BT I suspect not.

 

[Alduma]

Looking over previous posts, one annoying aspect of this case is why DG turned right at Crianlarich instead of continuing on the A85 to get back to Edinburgh. He passed The Green Welly at 2108 then 26 minutes later at 2134 he turned his phone on. He may not have driven the A82 road between Crianlarich and Tarbet before therefore he could have been passing Loch Lomond Holiday Park at 2134 and thought he was on the A82 south of Tarbet already and turned his phone on thinking he could misdirect the Police into thinking he had driven on the A83 from Inveraray.

I don't understand the change in direction myself. No doubt aware he was very late (which would be suspicious in itself) why choose to add more time to his return trip?

 

[Alduma]

The forestry clearance is advancing up the Allt Broighleachan, with areas closer to the River Orchy already cleared in recent years. One never knows - although clearance is done from the cab of large machines therefore workers may not be in a position to closely observe what's in the ground, the subsequent tree replanting will be done by hand.

Allt Broighleachan Foresty Clearance

 

[Alduma]

We've got a pretty comprehensive record of it all, which I put together in a paper for convenience. I even got the SIO of the case to look at it, and met him, but he's very fixated on an alleged sighting of Gilroy somewhere in the R&BT area on the Wednesday afternoon. His objective at our meeting seemed to be to explain to me why I was wrong, rather than take on board the possibility that maybe he was wrong and should try a different theory.

I think the sighting that he pins so much on is a red herring. I don't think it was Gilroy. It makes no sense at all that it was. I think she's somewhere between Tyndrum, Bridge of Orchy and Dalmally. With the Allt Broighleachan track, the area around the Duncan Bàn memorial and the Succoth track the three serious possibilities. I favour the first of these, although I could be wrong obviously. I've been up there twice, once with another forum member, a grappling hook and a metal detector, and found nothing.

It's been fifteen years. What are the chances now? Pretty remote, I'd say.

(If you want a copy of my paper drawing all the information together, DM me.)

I agree the sighting is on the face of it unlikely - wouldn't he go where there was zero chance of being seen? I don't know the details of the sighting - was he stumbled upon in a suspicious remote location or was it just parked up in a layby/car park? At any rate given the limited time he would have up there he wasn't going to be hanging about.

The obvious conclusion (as you reached) is that he wanted police to think he'd gone over the R&BT, but didn't - and was forced to return the Dalmally route as he had unfinished business, had to abandon to get to the school before it completely closed up. Otherwise he'd have hightailed it back to Edinburgh the quickest way (R&BT) and to reinforce his route for the police.

 

[Alduma]

I don't understand the change in direction myself. No doubt aware he was very late (which would be suspicious in itself) why choose to add more time to his return trip?

(Particularly if, at that point, he was trying to conceal the Dalmally leg. I'd have floored it back).

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

I don't understand the change in direction myself. No doubt aware he was very late (which would be suspicious in itself) why choose to add more time to his return trip?

If he thought he was south of Tarbet when he turned his phone on at 2134 (see post 1072) the reason he turned right at Crianlarich was misdirection. If he thought he was south of Tarbet on the A82 when he turned his phone on at 2134 this would (in his mind) lead the Police to think he travelled from Inveraray to Tarbet via the A83 in the evening (not via Tyndrum) He therefore hoped the Police would think the disposal site was on the A83 between Inveraray and Tarbet and not anywhere near Tyndrum.

DG would not have attempted this misdirection if he knew about the "very sensitive/comprehensive CCTV at Arrochar"

Ironically, even though DG tried to divert Police attention away from Tyndrum and towards the R&BT by turning right at Crianlarich he needn't have bothered. The Police focussed the search on the A83 between Inveraray and Tarbet instead of Tyndrum without his help.

 

[Alduma]

If he thought he was south of Tarbet when he turned his phone on at 2134 (see post 1072) the reason he turned right at Crianlarich was misdirection. If he thought he was south of Tarbet on the A82 when he turned his phone on at 2134 this would (in his mind) lead the Police to think he travelled from Inveraray to Tarbet via the A83 in the evening (not via Tyndrum) He therefore hoped the Police would think the disposal site was on the A83 between Inveraray and Tarbet and not anywhere near Tyndrum.

DG would not have attempted this misdirection if he knew about the "very sensitive/comprehensive CCTV at Arrochar"

Ironically, even though DG tried to divert Police attention away from Tyndrum and towards the R&BT by turning right at Crianlarich he needn't have bothered. The Police did focus the search on the A83 between Inveraray and Tarbet instead of Tyndrum without his help.

Of course - how could I forget that the R&BT route was to be the 'official' route

Though, even without his mobile phone management, the additional time taken on both journeys would always be suspicious, 'car trouble' notwithstanding. The police would always know he'd deviated/stopped for hours in both directions; I don't know how he thought he'd get away with it. Perhaps he thought with no body he'd be in the clear, or perhaps (until the call he took in Lochgilphead) he thought he wouldn't even be a suspect.

 

[Rolfe]

I've just read over the paper I wrote, for the first time in a while. I have added some things since it was last shared I think - the thing about his tie being re-tied twice during the day, and the weather records that give the lie to his claim that it was raining heavily at Crianlarich on his way home. I also added notes on what Stuart Houston told me. I don't seem to have anything about a stain from wet clothes.

DG left wet clothes on his cars passenger seat which left a water stain and the scratches on his hands could have occurred when Suzanne was fighting for her life but also when DG was moving through sharp foliage in order to get to the disposal site.

It would be good to have a source for this so I could add it to the rest.

I think it's way too late for dogs. I still think a metal detector might find something. Her jacket had a metal zip, bras usually have metal in them, she might have had a purse with coins in it. It's a shame @Bikepacker disappeared from the forum so suddenly, as she seemed to have some expertise in this area. But basically I think you need more people.

She has to be somewhere. I think the R&BT theory the police favour is fanciful. I think we're guessing about the Allt Broighleachan, but it really is the stand-out of all the locations that are realistically in the frame, although the Succoth track and the forestry tracks around the Duncan Bàn memorial can't be completely ruled out. An additional point though is that I don't think these latter tracks are rough enough to do such major damage to his suspension. The Allt Broighleachan one is, even if you don't go all the way past the picnic place to the deer fence.

I wonder why the cops searched all along the sides of the B8074 Glen Orchy road, but went right past the end of the Allt Broighleachan track without going up it. You'd think it would have struck someone as a possibility, surely. I don't believe she's within carrying/dragging distance of a public metalled road. For one thing, even a quiet road like the B8074 represents a terrible risk of being seen if you just park your car in some random passing place or layby and start unloading a dead body, and for another, how did he bork his suspension if he didn't go on to a potholed track at some stage? And yet they searched along the side of quite a lot of metalled roads, and ignored tracks.

I'm certain he knew where he was going before he left Edinburgh. If he was simply heading off with no clear plan about where he was going to dispose of the body he would inevitably have stopped before Tyndrum. There are all sorts of possibilities around Strathyre, Balquhidder, the south Loch Earn road, Glen Ogle and so on. The south Loch Tay road, Glen Lochay, there's no reason at all to drive on and on without stopping to investigate any of these. But which of the three possibles might he have been familiar with? @Alduma seems to have been famliar with both the Allt Broighleachan track and the Succoth track before any of this even kicked off, and the Duncan Bàn road is also a place visitors would go. I can't get any further into his thought processes beyong his knowing that there was somewhere between Tyndrum and Dalmally that suited his purposes and he was heading there.

The police think he spent almost all the missing time driving around and very little time at all disposing of the body, really just dumping her and moving on. This again makes no sense, because he would surely have wanted to take precautions against an accidental discovery of the body. (Although the fact that Tony Parsons wasn't found until McKellar confessed, even though he was just dumped and the possible search area was a lot smaller than what we're looking at, is a bit of a facer.) But Gilroy was in a different situation from the McKellar twins. Even if Tony had been found by accident that wouldn't necessarily have incriminated them. If Suzanne were to have been found anywhere accessible from Gilroy's drive from Edinburgh to Lochgilphead that day, that would have damned him unquestionably. He also wasn't drunk, was past the initial shock of what he'd done, was thinking clearly, and had daylight to work in. He wouldn't have had the time, the tools or indeed the depth of earth to dig a deep grave, but a shallower hole in a depression and cover it over, at least.

He must have had a reason for doing that bizarre detour down the side of Loch Lomond in the evening, and I'm surprised the police aren't more curious about it. I can't think of anything other than that he intended to lay a mobile phone trail from Tarbet through Balloch, Drymen and Kippen to Stirling to make it look as if he had driven over the R&BT from Inveraray, but turned the phone on about five miles too soon. Neat, although in the event the mistake (if that's what it was) makes it harder to insist that's what he was doing.

Ironic. All this planning to make it look as if he took the obvious route, his usual route, and to induce the cops to waste their time searching the R&BT. And he almost immediately has to admit that he drove the Tyndrum route after all. And yet the cops still waste their time searching the R&BT, so by his thinking he should have been OK. But hey, who knew. You can be convicted of murder if there is enough circumstantial evidence, even if you have successfully disposed of the body. And it was his cunning (but futile) plan to mislead the police as to which way he had gone that provided enough circumstantial evidence to convict him. If he'd simply spent ten minutes or so dumping her body and been lucky that it wasn't found, I don't think he'd have been convicted. His lack of any plausible explanation for the missing hours on that journey is the thing that really clinches his guilt.