Dave Herman retired disc jockey arrested

[Aepervius]

I am split on the issue.

The method remind me of those (FBI?) agent chatting with young dumb moslem folk , trying to convince them to go "hardcore" then provide them with a fake bomb.
Would the idiot have had the courage or even the possibility without the agent encouragement ? How much was that old guy "encouraged" in the transcript ?

It is questionable whether without that encouragement they would have taken the steps to do the illegal things, or not.

I find such action from police/agent rather not so black & white, but rather going toward the gray zone.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I am split on the issue.

The method remind me of those (FBI?) agent chatting with young dumb moslem folk , trying to convince them to go "hardcore" then provide them with a fake bomb.
Would the idiot have had the courage or even the possibility without the agent encouragement ? How much was that old guy "encouraged" in the transcript ?

It is questionable whether without that encouragement they would have taken the steps to do the illegal things, or not.

I find such action from police/agent rather not so black & white, but rather going toward the gray zone.

A normal person will not agree to set a bomb no matter how much someone badgers them to do it.

Yes these folks may have went their whole life without committing a crime, but they were obviously susceptible to being pressured in to the cause, so if a real recruiter got to them first they could indeed become terrorists.

There are probably better ways to spend limited resources that worrying about people with weak wills who could be corrupted, but it's not quite the farce some people make it out to be.

 

[thrombus29]

Then you're going to need a ouija board because Scott Muni died a while back. Maybe ask Pat St. John or Dan Neer instead.

Michael

I just looked that up. Pete Fornatelle is dead too. I'm getting old.

That being said, 7 years old is Garry Glitter type nastyness. No sympathy from me.

 

[marplots]

Although he won't be able to cross "sex with a minor" off his bucket list, he'll score on "spend time in prison" instead.

 

[Caper]

Although he won't be able to cross "sex with a minor" off his bucket list, he'll score on "spend time in prison" instead.

Might have been off is bucket list years ago.

 

[Babbylonian]

Wow... Those are some groundbreaking points you bring up.

Yeah, I know they're a bit obvious. Still, it seems like some people posting in this thread might need the help.

 

[marplots]

Might have been off is bucket list years ago.

Let's not be pessimistic here.

 

[newyorkguy]

I can see both sides. The fact that he is seventy-years-old, that he agreed to meet someone he apparently only knew from an Internet chat room, meet them at the airport and fly with them to the Virgin Islands, that doesn't sound like he's entirely rational.

Talking about him crossing it off his bucket list is to me a very callous and simplistic reaction, based on emotion not reason. But so what, right? If the cops say he did it that should be good enough. Like someone wrote, screw him.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

For those expressing skepticism about this one, you can view the original complaint on the Dept. of Justice webpage HERE. (WARNING: Definitely NSFW.)

I used to be a criminal defense attorney. Trust me when I say that he's not walking on this one. He couldn't have done worse for himself if he had personally called up the FBI and asked if they had any young girls available for sex tourism that night. The prosecutor would have to work very hard to lose a case with as much documentary and physical evidence as they have.

It's over for this guy. He's cooked, carved, and served. At this point all he can hope for is that his prison assignment is in a warm climate.

 

[Caper]

For those expressing skepticism about this one, you can view the original complaint on the Dept. of Justice webpage HERE. (WARNING: Definitely NSFW.)

I used to be a criminal defense attorney. Trust me when I say that he's not walking on this one. He couldn't have done worse for himself if he had personally called up the FBI and asked if they had any young girls available for sex tourism that night. The prosecutor would have to work very hard to lose a case with as much documentary and physical evidence as they have.

It's over for this guy. He's cooked, carved, and served. At this point all he can hope for is that his prison assignment is in a warm climate.

What do you do now?

Anyway. It is obvious he is cooked. I'm just not sure if it makes a lot of sense for society to spend so much money on him to put him on trial and then spend sooo much money taking care if him for the rest of his life. Make a deal right now and give him 20 years house arrest.

I mean.... The Dodgers fans that nearly beat a man to death only got 12 years between the 2 of them... This guy just wanted to molest an imaginary girl....

 

[Giordano]

I can see both sides. The fact that he is seventy-years-old, that he agreed to meet someone he apparently only knew from an Internet chat room, meet them at the airport and fly with them to the Virgin Islands, that doesn't sound like he's entirely rational.

Talking about him crossing it off his bucket list is to me a very callous and simplistic reaction, based on emotion not reason. But so what, right? If the cops say he did it that should be good enough. Like someone wrote, screw him.

He would need to plea that he was not guilty by reason of insanity. The rules to fit under this option vary by state, but typically it is not an easy option to invoke successfully. And even if you convince a jury, you usually do not walk. Instead you often have years of confinement in a criminal, mental institute ahead of you, rather than a defined sentence.

 

[angrysoba]

Early or mid-90's, and I was otj and knew even then that any conversation on the 'net with anyone on any subject wasn't private.

OT, but my agency served an arrest warrant on a guy who sent porn to a juvenile female, who happened to be his employer's daughter, and he had used his work computer to send/store his porn.

Not every offender is this stupid, but it seems that prevs looking for kids adopted the 'net early on as a tool for finding victims and as a way to meet like-minded people.

ETA: the chance of a first timer offender being arrested for their first crime is about -0-, so look for more facts/victims to come forward.

Well, that shows what I know.

Thanks.

 

[angrysoba]

A normal person will not agree to set a bomb no matter how much someone badgers them to do it.
Yes these folks may have went their whole life without committing a crime, but they were obviously susceptible to being pressured in to the cause, so if a real recruiter got to them first they could indeed become terrorists.

There are probably better ways to spend limited resources that worrying about people with weak wills who could be corrupted, but it's not quite the farce some people make it out to be.

The hilited part sounds more like an assumption rather than a hard fact. From what I understand, pyschological experiments such as the Milgram experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment suggest that there are a lot of things that "normal people" can quite easily be talked into, depending upon the people they have around them. I think that peer pressure and peer approval is a big factor.

Also, from what I understand, people with the kind of training that comes with being in the police tend to be more than averagely persuasive, so the idea that an extremist group could happen along anyway sounds like special pleading.

Similarly, people in the right cultural milieu will find all kinds of things that would horrify us to be perfectly normal. These will be normal people in the sense that they are typical of their societies, and yet they go in for witch-burning, stoning of adulterers, murder of homosexuals, lynching of black people, ring-side seats for the electric chair, child marriage and all over body tattoos - and those people would be or would have been the normal people in their societies.

 

[dasmiller]

A normal person will not agree to set a bomb no matter how much someone badgers them to do it.

Yes these folks may have went their whole life without committing a crime, but they were obviously susceptible to being pressured in to the cause, so if a real recruiter got to them first they could indeed become terrorists.

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of imprisoning someone for being "susceptible to being pressured."

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

The hilited part sounds more like an assumption rather than a hard fact. From what I understand, pyschological experiments such as the Milgram experiment and the Stanford Prison Experiment suggest that there are a lot of things that "normal people" can quite easily be talked into, depending upon the people they have around them. I think that peer pressure and peer approval is a big factor.

I'd argue there is a big difference from pressing a button, and planning and carrying out a terrorist act.

For a Milgram-esque response I imagine the terrorist recruiter would have to stay on them every minute so they didn't have a chance to reconsider what they are doing. And if that is the case they become utterly useless as terrorists.

You can get most people to do something stupid if you surprise them and apply pressure, it's way harder to program people to be operatives.

So I again contend that the F.B.I. stings are only catching unusually pliable subjects. Again though, it's probably not the best use of finite resources.

It's my opinion that too much effort from law enforcement is poured in to showy PR crap rather than effective tactics. Show the public guns and drugs seized, or wannabe terrorists nabbed, who cares if the stings actually put much of a dent in the problem? The appearance is all.

Also, from what I understand, people with the kind of training that comes with being in the police tend to be more than averagely persuasive, so the idea that an extremist group could happen along anyway sounds like special pleading.

You don't think terrorist recruiters aren't as persuasive as cops? They find young men who feel adrift in life and convince them to kill themselves.

Similarly, people in the right cultural milieu will find all kinds of things that would horrify us to be perfectly normal. These will be normal people in the sense that they are typical of their societies, and yet they go in for witch-burning, stoning of adulterers, murder of homosexuals, lynching of black people, ring-side seats for the electric chair, child marriage and all over body tattoos - and those people would be or would have been the normal people in their societies.

Well now you're getting way beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[angrysoba]

I'd argue there is a big difference from pressing a button, and planning and carrying out a terrorist act.

For a Milgram-esque response I imagine the terrorist recruiter would have to stay on them every minute so they didn't have a chance to reconsider what they are doing. And if that is the case they become utterly useless as terrorists.

You can get most people to do something stupid if you surprise them and apply pressure, it's way harder to program people to be operatives.

So I again contend that the F.B.I. stings are only catching unusually pliable subjects. Again though, it's probably not the best use of finite resources.

It's my opinion that too much effort from law enforcement is poured in to showy PR crap rather than effective tactics. Show the public guns and drugs seized, or wannabe terrorists nabbed, who cares if the stings actually put much of a dent in the problem? The appearance is all.



You don't think terrorist recruiters aren't as persuasive as cops? They find young men who feel adrift in life and convince them to kill themselves.



Well now you're getting way beyond the scope of this thread.

I agree with you about too much effort going in to "showy PR crap" and disagree with you on the armchair theorizing about what it takes to make someone carry out criminal acts.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I'm uncomfortable with the idea of imprisoning someone for being "susceptible to being pressured."

It's not like they were arrested for thought crimes. They thought they were training to be terrorists, and they went along with it.

It's somewhat analogous to society letting steam off from a pressure cooker, or thinning a dangerous animal species before it's number become a problem. They toss out the fake bait, and land them before a real fisherman can come along.

Again though, I'd rather see them go after the recruiters than the recruits. It reminds me too much of the war on drugs, and the amount of resources we waste on pushers and addicts.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

I agree with you about too much effort going in to "showy PR crap" and disagree with you on the armchair theorizing about what it takes to make someone carry out criminal acts.

Well if you can show me solid research on people being charmed in to acting against their character for extended periods of time, I'd certainly be open to reading it.

 

[angrysoba]

Well if you can show me solid research on people being charmed in to acting against their character for extended periods of time, I'd certainly be open to reading it.

I've already cited an example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Whether you will agree with the findings is another matter. There may well have been flaws in the methodology, but I think it essentially fulfills the stipulations you are making.

 

[BenBurch]

Good evening.
I had a BBS on my Atari 400 back in the 80's. I would chat with people. I never did Compucash. My first was Genie. It allowed me to play games with people all over the world. IRC chat was all the rage. 300 baud, the information super driveway.

Air Warrior! I loved me some GEnie!