Cult Archaeology

Ah, hell. Just to stir things up a bit.

I always enjoy a bit of cult archaeology/paleontology in the claims that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.

Things like the paluxy river tracks that claim to show dinosaur and man tracks together, or Malachite Man, or the supposed Jurassic artifacts, fossilized tools, etc. Or the giant collection of supposed dinosaur sculptures.

For the sake of discussion, is there a favorite one of these hoaxes, most well done, or even more interesting, is there anything out there in this vein that is begging for explanation?

OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?

Consider the topic re-stirred....:) Let the fun begin again.
 
Scrutinizer...dagnabit....I was gonna say something about that in my post, being a huge fan of that movie. I'm glad you asked about that. May be a topic all by itself..:)

I don't think so, nor do I think there is any actual evidence to support the existence of the Valley of Gwangi, or that cowboys ever roped a dinosaur....
 
atomicmutant said:
Ah, hell. Just to stir things up a bit.

I always enjoy a bit of cult archaeology/paleontology in the claims that man and dinosaurs lived together at the same time.

Things like the paluxy river tracks that claim to show dinosaur and man tracks together, or Malachite Man, or the supposed Jurassic artifacts, fossilized tools, etc. Or the giant collection of supposed dinosaur sculptures.

For the sake of discussion, is there a favorite one of these hoaxes, most well done, or even more interesting, is there anything out there in this vein that is begging for explanation?

OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?

Consider the topic re-stirred....:) Let the fun begin again.
Click to expand...

Well I really must apologize, AtomicMutant, but that question is out of my perview.

Archaeology's playing field extends from the present back until the dawn of civilization - that is, the era in which men began building permanent settlements, learned domestication/agricultural/industrial methods, and so forth. The earliest such settlements we can find date back to possibly around 7000 BC at the earliest. Anything involving humans before that becomes the property of Biological Anthropology. The age of the dinosaurs ended, on the other hand, around 66 million years ago, and is the property of Palaeontology. Even if we use the earliest humanoid apes as our starting point (around 200,000 years ago, apparently), there's still quite a time gap to cover - and I wouldn't be the one to cover it. You'd have to talk to a palaeontologist. :(

However, I've heard it through the grapevine that the Paluxy River "manprints" are actually the footprints of a three-toed bipedal dinosaur.
 
Joshua, I'm well aware of the fact that the two disciplines can't by virtue of fact, overlap. However, the theory that man and dinosaurs existed together does fall under "cult archaeology", as well as creationism, wouldn't you grant?

I was just interested in helping you stir things up, not suggesting that any of it was true.

OK, I'll re-pose the question of what would the greatest archaeological mystery be....some artifact that doesn't fit, or a gap that professionals would really like to fit because they'd like
to know how "A" led to "B"...something like that.

And, to extend my practice of covering multiple topics in one post, I've got friends who are convinced that because of Thor Heyerdalh's trans-atlantic journey, that there was contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas...you can run with that one, if you'd like...
 
atomicmutant said:
Joshua, I'm well aware of the fact that the two disciplines can't by virtue of fact, overlap. However, the theory that man and dinosaurs existed together does fall under "cult archaeology", as well as creationism, wouldn't you grant?

I was just interested in helping you stir things up, not suggesting that any of it was true.

OK, I'll re-pose the question of what would the greatest archaeological mystery be....some artifact that doesn't fit, or a gap that professionals would really like to fit because they'd like
to know how "A" led to "B"...something like that.

And, to extend my practice of covering multiple topics in one post, I've got friends who are convinced that because of Thor Heyerdalh's trans-atlantic journey, that there was contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas...you can run with that one, if you'd like...
Click to expand...

I understood your intention - that's why I apologized upon not being able to fully answer it. The Paluxy prints are nearly always offered in favor of religion - by Christian Creationists, who insist that the world must only be a few thousand years old, and by Hindu Fundamentalists, who insist that man must be millions of years old. As far as I know, the Paluxy prints are those of a three-toed dinosaur, whose rather plainly-shaped foot suggested a sandal print. But the "manprints", as they are called, have bottom contour (unlike a sandal print), though that contour is very not primate-like. The prints are too big to have been made by any human whose remains have been found to date.

As for contact between Ancient Egypt and the Americas, allow me to lay out my argument against such contact.

Firstly, there is the time issue. What we know as "Ancient Egypt" was the time between the Predynastic Period (c. 3000 BCE) - the "time before the kings" when the first nomadic tribes began settling along the Nile - to the end of the New Kingdom (1070 BCE), after which the last of the Pharaohs were replaced with foreign rulers and eventually the Romans. The earliest American civilization we know of - the Toltecs - came to be around 350 BCE. If the ancient Egyptians had visited the Americas, they would've been lucky to find another human there.

Secondly, there is the logistical issue. The ancient Egyptians became more than adept at navigating the Nile River; however, they simply did not do the Open Sea. When navigating in the Mediterranean was absolutely necessary, the ships literally hugged the coast, because they weren't built for oceanic travel. No Egyptian seacraft could've withstanded a trans-Atlantic voyage, for certain.

Thirdly, and most obviously (in my opinion, at least), there is no record of any such contact. Not only that, but there are no cultural artifacts - instances where Egyptian mythology or symbology rubbed off on the natives. The only thing pre-columbian civilization seems to share with Egypt is sun worship - something that practically every ancient civilization exhibited. Some assert that the precolumbians got the idea of pyramid building from the Egyptians - but this doesn't stand, because the precolumbians (1) didn't build true pyramids like the Egyptians did, and (2) used their pyramids for completely different purposes than the Egyptians.

As far true archaeological mysteries...there are a few, and they are quite provocative and tantalizing. However, it's late, and I'm quite tired. I shall return tomorrow morning (later this morning?) and answer that question with a list of my favorite "Unsolved Archaeological Mysteries". I'll try not to disappoint...
 
As far true archaeological mysteries...there are a few, and they are quite provocative and tantalizing. However, it's late, and I'm quite tired. I shall return tomorrow morning (later this morning?) and answer that question with a list of my favorite "Unsolved Archaeological Mysteries". I'll try not to disappoint...
Click to expand...

I am really looking forward to this. I'm tired of made up mysteries like Atlantis, I'm sure the real ones are much more compelling....
Get some sleep..see ya tomorrow, and thanks!
 
Oh, yeah, the other part of the contact between Egypt and the Americas had to do with coffee beans that weren't from that part of the world being found in a tomb. This is way second hand info, I'm just trying to relay it.....so I can't back that up....but anyway..there it is.
 
atomicmutant said:
OK, I'll slightly change the topic in mid-post, and also pose the question, which Archeological find is the most perplexing and strange to professionals today?
Click to expand...
Well, this one is not overtly strange but it was certainly a very surprising find: The Wolf Cave near Kristiinankaupunki, Finland. It is a cave that contains stone age artifacts. The surprising thing is that they predate the last ice age, being roughly 100000 years old. As the whole Finland was under a 3km thick glacier during the last glaciation period, it was believed that all traces of prior habitation would have been vanished during it.
 
UnrepentantSinner said:


1. I haven't heard about fake mummies being resurgent of late. Do you have a reference?

2. The most simplistic answer is covergent social evolution. Sorta the same way that both Bats and Beetles developed wings, though in toally different contexts. Thor Heirdahl had some fascinating theories that he was able to evidence though his RA II and Kon Tiki expiditions (I've been to a museum in Oslo {or was it Copenhagen, I forget} with replicas of both) but not enough to demonstrate actual cultural exchanges between pre-Columbian America and socieities from the east or west. If you look at the representation of Kukulkan on "El Castillo" in Chichen Itza (which I have) and compare it with the representation of snakes in Egypt (which I have not) you see two very different mythologies only connected by the image of a snake.

RE: Persia.

When I was a boy, my dad (and our family) had the priviledge of being stationed in Iran. I have been kicking myself in the ass for almost 15 years (since I discovered ancient Peri's as a teen) that I did not accompany my mother on a trip that included Persepolis. I have pics. I have her recollections. I really want to/wish I'd gone myself. I have an on-line Iranian friend who I would love to travel back to her country with and have her take me to my old house in Tehran and to see Persepolis - where Alexander destroyed the Persian empire and Zoroastrianism.

But I don't think it's going to happen. :(
Click to expand...

1)It was on documentary I was watching, what started out as a rare mummy form Persia turning up on the black-market in India(?)turned into a horrific murder manhunt. At the end it was still being investigated as moe were still being discovered. I look through the paper stack and see if I can find where and what it is was on for you.

2) Do you have any more info for this.

Persia shame on you and I bet you did kick your ass on missing out.

Last part???
 
The following is a list of my favorite archaeological "mysteries", along with short descriptions of what they entail. Though it isn't my direct intention, this list may prove that you don't need thousand-year-old astronauts, electric lighting in ancient tombs, and the like, to have a fascinating puzzle on your hands. Let's dive in, shall we?

The "People of the Sea"
Let's start in Egypt - good a place as any. Around 1130 BCE, the entire eastern Mediterranean Sea was beseiged by a band of merry marauders called the "People of the Sea". They sacked towns and villages along the coasts of Greece and Italy, Turkey and Canaan, leaving havoc and destruction in their wake - in fact, these people completely obliterated the Hittites - something even Ramesses the Great wasn't able to do. Then they set their sights on the big fish, Egypt. They attacked on and off, in an almost Viking fashion, for around 50 years or so. Interestingly, they made a point of attacking governmental and administrative buildings and structures, rather than houses and cultural centers.

The People of the Sea were defeated decisively by Ramesses III in a grand battle in the Nile Delta - think D-Day, except the invaders lost. But aside from these facts, we still don't know for certain who the People of the Sea were, or where they came from. Captions at the Temple of Karnak suggest that they were a collaboration of many traditional Egyptian enemies such as the Tyrrhenians and the Philistines - some of whom were enduring famine and thus may have had a motive - but the nature of their alliance, where they were based, and how these starving peoples could have funded their incredible war machine, are true mysteries. Other accounts suggest they may have been deserters from a hitherto unknown army. The beginnings of their attacks coincide with the first fall of Troy (not to be mistaken with the grand Trojan War), so there may be a link there as well. But so far, this is a most murky chapter in our understanding of history.

Roanoke
The island of Roanoke, near Cape Hatteras, was the site of several doomed English colonies established by Sir Walter Raleigh in the late 1500's. The first was established in 1585. It was militaristic in nature; the colonists' task was to build a fort there. This settlement was visited by Francis Drake in 1586, who found the colonists at war with the Roanoke indians that inhabited the island; after much deliberation, that colony decided to return to England. Richard Grenville, Raleigh's cousin, visited the island a week or so after it had been abandoned, and became distressed at finding it empty. He left 15 men and enough supplies to keep them for two years on Roanoke, to "hold the land" until he could return from England with a new settlement expedition.

That expedition was formed by Raleigh in 1587, and consisted of 150 men, women, and children. They arrived on the island expecting to find the 15 men Grenville had left behind; instead, they found one's skeleton, and no trace of the rest. The friendly Croatoan indians insisted that the Roanoke indians had killed the 15 men, so the colonists fell upon the only Roanoke indian town on the island - only to find it abandoned, and that they had accidentally killed several Croatoan indians who were scavenging for abandoned supplies there. Oops. Nevertheless, the Croatoan indians forgave them.

So the colony was established on August 13th, 1587. On August 27th John White, the colony's governor, left Roanoke at the behest of the colonists, leaving his daughter and her family behind. Given the penchant for colonies to disappear on this island, White gave the colony specific instructions as to what signs to leave should the colony have to move or encounter trouble. He was to return with supplies from England - but due to a war with Spain, no supply ship could be sent. Governor White lobbied hard, but it was 1590 before a supply expedition could be mounted.

The supply fleet reached Roanoke Island on August 12th, 1590 - to find the colony completely deserted. Houses had been torn down, their wood used to make a crude palisade fort. Rusted iron lay strewn about, indicating that the colony had been deserted for quite a while. At the top of a hill, the searchers found the letters "CRO" carved into a tree, and on one of the palisade posts, the word "CROATOAN was carved. No where in evidence were the signs White declared should be used in case of trouble. There were no skeletons...no traces at all.

White's expedition was unable to search Croatoan Island because of stormy weather; they resolved to sail to the West Indies to resupply, then return to Croatoan Island in an attempt to solve the mystery. But in transit, the fleet was blown off course and ended up at the Azores eventually. Unable to finance another trip, White resigned himself to the fact that he would never see his lost family again. There would be other attempts to search for the lost colony, all in vain. When Jamestown was settled in 1607, the colonists there asked the local indians if they had any idea what had happened to the Roanoke colony, but they didn't. No trace of that colony has been found to this day.

Well, the typing has taken longer than I thought it would. These two articles must suffice for now; after work I'll add to the list...meanwhile, you're free to dig up whatever you can regarding these two subjects.
 
Joshua, love those two mysteries. I had heard of the Roanoke one, actually....I remember seeing the story, just as you recount it, illustrated in, I believe, a Ripley's Believe it or Not comic book when I was young. It actually creeped me out, and your mention of the tree carving brought back the shivers....disappeared.....without a trace....ooooooOOOOOOO!

What's amazing is that the actual story as you've relayed it is exactly what I first read about, they didn't really embellish it at all.

I had never heard of the people of the sea before...good one.

Any others you have, I'm really enjoying this, feel free to continue, and thank you!
 
Joshua, I'm sure it takes a long time to type these mysteries......this is just a plea to not let this thread fall off the map.....'cause what you've contributed is very cool and interesting....if there are others, please share.....
 
atomicmutant said:
Joshua, I'm sure it takes a long time to type these mysteries......this is just a plea to not let this thread fall off the map.....'cause what you've contributed is very cool and interesting....if there are others, please share.....
Click to expand...

I must apologize...this has been one busy week! I've only had time to drop in now and then for a quick look-see...I think I should be able to post some more stuff within the next day or two.
 
The Sumerians

Joshua:

I believe that Sitchin was supposed to have translated the ancient Sumerian texts, and (according to him), they show that humans are descended from aliens. It’s connected with this Planet X / 12th planet stuff.

I presume that archeology has its respected peer-reviewed journals that would publish the details of any such translations. I had a couple of questions about that:

  1. What are the titles of such peer reviewed journals?
  2. Did Sitchin or anybody else publish details of any translations that support the ancient astronaut theories? If so where, and what was the feedback from the archeological community?

    (Or did he just publish his books?)
  3. Has any scholar of Sumerian culture ever published any comments about Sitchin’s theories?
  4. What other views are there on these old texts, and what is the best places to read about them?
 
I have a question. Last year I heard a story on NPR about a discovery off the coast of Cuba. In thousands of feet of water, researchers using sensing equipment (sonar, I guess) picked up very intriguing shapes on the ocean floor. It looked for all the world like cut stone blocks arranged in regular (and apparently non-natural) patterns.

Quite a few scientists who had seen the data said that it really looked like underwater ruins of some sort, but it was miles off the coast and in deep water. There were two theories:

1) The features were natural, just unusual

2) the features were man-made from thousands of years ago, but some unknown geological activity had sunk them.

The scientists interviewed seemed keenly interested in researching it before the "cult archaeologists" could start messing around. But the depth of the water makes is hard to get to--I think there was going to be some kind of research expedition this year.

Does anyone else know what I'm talking about, and have they heard any more news on it?
 
RichardR and Bluegill:

I've only just seen your last posts, so sorry I couldn't respond before now. Bluegill, you can expect a post regarding your question tonight; RichardR, I'll try to get to yours tonight but it may take longer, as your questions require a little bit of digging.

Cheers,

Josh K
 
Joshua Korosi said:


For those who don't know (who doesn't?), Pompeii was an ancient Roman city destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in A.D. 79. Because of its proximity to the volcano, Pompeii was quickly and completely buried by the eruption's pyroclastic flow (note: ask Tricky the Geologist to explain more about volcanoes and pyroclastic flow).

Yes, Pompeii was well-known at the time of its destruction. Several Roman ships stationed at a city called Misenum, directly across the Bay of Naples, witnessed the eruption and raced toward Pompeii to attempt rescue; unfortunately, many of them were destroyed as well.

We have an eyewitness account of the events, in the form of two letters from a man named Pliny to Tacitus, the historian. Pliny was the nephew of the Roman fleet commander at Misenum, who died during the rescue attempt.

Letters 1 and 2.
Click to expand...
A question. Wasn't there another city near Vesuvuis, I believe on the other side of Vesuvius. If so, why did Pompeii get remembered and not the other city? I remember watching a History channel episode many years ago on the Eruption of Vesuvius and they spoke of a second city, I think. It was a long time ago and my memory may be faulty.
 
magimix said:
One point that has always interested me about this sort of thing is what, at times, appears to be the commonly held notion that our ancestors knew more than we did. So much in our literature, or in the treatises (probably a proper plural around somewhere!) of 'woo-woo' archeologists we see the notion of lost knowledge, of forgotten technology; wonders that would make our 'mundane' mordern take on things seem childish in comparison. This frequently seems to tie in with notions of blessed and advanced cultures; that somehow over time we are, on top of forgetting this miraculous knowledge, regressing over time, until at the end we will no doubt be scrabbling about in the dirt, not unlike the apes from 2001: A Space Odyssy - evolution in reverse, if you will.

The two extremes are quite interesting. At one end you have people like von daniken, who cannot accept that pre-historic peoples weren't all forgetful savages, saved only by 'outside' influences. At the other end you have those (no names spring to mind atm alas) who see in the past a Golden Age, with astounding technology and culture (Atlantis, anyone?) and that, presumably, its all been downhill from that point onwards.
Click to expand...

I have a question about the Library at Alexanderia. It supposed held vast amounts of wrtitings that held knowledge from across the known world. I don't mean knowledge of aliens or Atlantis (I don't beleive in that) but knowlwdge in science, mathmatics, medicine, philosophy, poetry, etc. As it was expaline dto me by a friend the caretakers of the Library would meet people visiting Alexanderia and copy everything that they had in written form.b It's destruction meant ther loss of tremendous amount of knowledge. Is this true?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom