Crop circle debunking help needed

[Stray Cat]

In England, where most of the things are made, it is only dark for 4-6 hours on summer nights, and only pitch dark for about 3 hours (unless there is a moon).

By July/August when the main wheat crop is ready, the hours of darkness have extended and there is enough 'pitch dark' for over 5 hours work.
However, there's no such thing as 'pitch dark' above ground, but I know what you mean when you describe it as such.

With good planning and proper instruments (laser pointers, camera tripods with angle calibrated panning heads, laser distance rules, GPS units, etc) how long does it take to flatten some grain?

None of these instruments are used regularly and they have only been recently used by a few circlemakers (within the last 2 years). There are many 'traditionalists' who take nothing but string and stomper boards.

Most of the refutations try to show how comples those patterns are to construct, and pretend that perpetrators have to do all that in a dark field. ... Nonsense, they can do the construction in broad daylight in a parking lot or soccer field taking all the time they need, then make string templates and bring to the field.

No need for this. The designs are worked out to be made 'on the fly'. Sometimes surveyors tapes (or lengths of pre-stretched string) are marked with knots or sticky tape, so that radius measurements are easier to find, but even this isn't necessary as most 'complex looking; crop circles only contain few actual measurements. Mostly the bit you've already done is used to determine the size of what you do next.

 

[Stray Cat]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...circle-ever-discovered-in-British-fields.html

This is one example of a circle that guys like "Doug and Dave" can't duplicate.

We've moved on a bit since the days of Doug and Dave. Dave is now dead and Doug is in his 70's, though still keeps up with what is what, I don't think he has been active in circlemaking for a good few years.

Theres alot more than "pigs" and simple circles to some of these.

The design of them certainly gives the appearance on complexity doesn't it? But you'll notice (if you look) that the actual geometry required to plot and construct them is usually the most basic kind.

I've never seen a group of such disinterested , yet obviously interested enough to find any hint of manmade crops evidence.

Disinterested?
Try me.

There's radiation in some of these crop circles,

There's background radiation everywhere on the planet. It's nothing special.
So which crop circles have shown unusual amounts? (higher than background levels)
Who did the measurements?
How were the measurements verified?

bent elongated nodes,

You know what phototropism is?
Bent and elongated nodes are only EVER found in crop circles during the period when they are still in growth stage. So the later in the season, the less likely this effect will be found in a crop circle. It is nothing more than the plant's natural response to being flattened.

blown out, from the inside is the description of most investigators,

"most investigators" like to exaggerate.
The "blown nodes" (as they are described by the likes of BLT) are in fact just signs of damage which can be easily replicated by flattening some wheat. Again, this happens more when the crop is in it's growth stage and "blown nodes" are not found in circles made in fully matured ripening wheat.

like have been microwaved.

Have you ever tried microwaving some wheat stems?
Try it, they steam and go soft, not at the nodes... The nodes are the toughest bits to bend in this way.

Its not a sensable statement for one to find a counterfeit and declare all to be.

It's not a sensible statement to ignore human potential and claim some unproven, unknown entity is making them.
There has been no crop circle ever made that is beyond the capability of humans.

 

[MRC_Hans]

More often though, I think it's a case of croppies not understanding how quickly a formation, even a seemingly quite complex one, can be laid down by a team of two to four people on a summer's night.

Also, if I were to make a crop circle, a complex one, I would make it in stages that would look finished on their own. So if it was spotted after the first night, that was it, and otherwise, I could go back and add more bells and whistles.

Hans

 

[23_Tauri]

Also, if I were to make a crop circle, a complex one, I would make it in stages that would look finished on their own. So if it was spotted after the first night, that was it, and otherwise, I could go back and add more bells and whistles.

Hans

Which happens all the time, of course. Others still are spotted after the first night, and finished on second. The 'Mayan' cc at Silbury Hill on 2nd and 3rd August 2004 is an example of a formation that took two nights to complete and was seen and photographed in both it's first and second stages.

It makes no difference to the faithful as such occurences don't stop some from believing that non human entities are to blame. There's nothing to say that ET can't work over two nights, too!

 

[MRC_Hans]

By July/August when the main wheat crop is ready, the hours of darkness have extended and there is enough 'pitch dark' for over 5 hours work.
However, there's no such thing as 'pitch dark' above ground, but I know what you mean when you describe it as such.


None of these instruments are used regularly and they have only been recently used by a few circlemakers (within the last 2 years). There are many 'traditionalists' who take nothing but string and stomper boards.


No need for this. The designs are worked out to be made 'on the fly'. Sometimes surveyors tapes (or lengths of pre-stretched string) are marked with knots or sticky tape, so that radius measurements are easier to find, but even this isn't necessary as most 'complex looking; crop circles only contain few actual measurements. Mostly the bit you've already done is used to determine the size of what you do next.

Well, you seem to know what you are talking about.

I never did, and most likely never will, make a crop circle. However, the list of utilities I mention is only to show that there is, in principle, NO pattern too complex for a species that can build computers, bridges, and sky-scrapers.

Hans

 

[chuck4842]

If you have a careful look down in the bottom right-hand corner of every post, you'll see a number of buttons. One of them looks like this:

[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/QuoteButton.gif[/qimg]​

Would you care to hazard a guess as to the function of this button?





Given that you appear to not even understand the term 'cherry picking' as it relates to quoting someone, I'd suggest that your com speed, and several other com attributes, are being affected by . . . other factors.





Perhaps you should try something a bit less ambitious than cherry pick quoting people. Allow me to suggest that simply reading what they post might be a suitable starting point.






Please provide your definition of 'our'. I have a feeling it's a smaller group than you think.

I've used that buttun b4, but I still have'nt figured how to quote one sentence at a time as you just did, so I can respond to each statement, with that highlighting effect. You're right about other influences , I was going to post something really stupid last night, after a few beers.

 

[chuck4842]

If we're the only ones making 'em than it's a disgusting hobby of slapping the starving. It's also a disgusting country that rationalizes it. I can't hand you the nodes thru your monitor that appeared to have been blown from the inside out likea microwave.

 

[Stray Cat]

If we're the only ones making 'em than it's a disgusting hobby of slapping the starving. It's also a disgusting country that rationalizes it.

Yes, of course, it's only cool if it's aliens. If it's nasty humans it's all wrong.
I guess it's OK if the aliens are "slapping the starving"

I can't hand you the nodes thru your monitor that appeared to have been blown from the inside out likea microwave.

You mean you can't hand me the nodes through your monitor that appear exactly the same as if they had been manually flattened by a stomper board, and which show signs of stress damage that you don't know what it looks like so you 'imagine' what a microwave would do to it, without actually trying to microwave a wheat stalk first to check of your imagining is accurate?

Is that what you can't do?

 

[SusanB-M1]

#162 Stray Cat

Nice post!

 

[tsig]

Obviously we're not as smart as aliens, we created no circles on the moon or mars to communicate with the resident organisms of those rocks.
Stupid humans.
Travel across the void and then don't even leave a circle greeting.

What do you think they were doing with the Rover??

They drove in circles every time they left the Lander proof is they always came back!!

 

[tsig]

Ooo, I know!
[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_108294d34596dd6b91.png[/qimg]

Wow!! The JREF owes me over 12,000 pieces of bacon.

 

[tsig]

If we're the only ones making 'em than it's a disgusting hobby of slapping the starving. It's also a disgusting country that rationalizes it. I can't hand you the nodes thru your monitor that appeared to have been blown from the inside out likea microwave.

Have you put a node in a microwave to see if it blows from the inside?

 

[EHocking]

What do you think they were doing with the Rover??

They drove in circles every time they left the Lander proof is they always came back!!

PHew!

That has renewed my faith in human intelligence.

 

[chuck4842]

Yes, of course, it's only cool if it's aliens. If it's nasty humans it's all wrong.
I guess it's OK if the aliens are "slapping the starving"


You mean you can't hand me the nodes through your monitor that appear exactly the same as if they had been manually flattened by a stomper board, and which show signs of stress damage that you don't know what it looks like so you 'imagine' what a microwave would do to it, without actually trying to microwave a wheat stalk first to check of your imagining is accurate?

Is that what you can't do?

It's not OK but it IS cool. Ya see the aliens circles survived, produced, in some cases produced more than the untouched crops. LOL! You underestimate my insanity, but this is a common report.

Has anyone seen the articles on Dr. Eltjo H. Haselhoff, Ph.D. , book and findings?

Members here , I must say, got a way of getting to the point. I love you all

 

[23_Tauri]

It's not OK but it IS cool. Ya see the aliens circles survived, produced, in some cases produced more than the untouched crops.

Produced more what?

LOL! You underestimate my insanity, but this is a common report.

Have you got a reference for that (the 'common report' to which you refer, not your insanity level). It might help me understand what you're on about.

Has anyone seen the articles on Dr. Eltjo H. Haselhoff, Ph.D. , book and findings?

Yes. What of them?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Members here , I must say, got a way of getting to the point. I love you all

And you have a way of avoiding it. Have you microwaved a stalk of corn to see what happens to it, or are you basing your claims on what you imagine what might happen if you did?

 

[Stray Cat]

It's not OK but it IS cool. Ya see the aliens circles survived, produced, in some cases produced more than the untouched crops. LOL! You underestimate my insanity, but this is a common report.

If you are referring to the work of (not a Dr. even though he claims to be one) W. Levengood in reporting increased yield from crop circle samples. It is utter tosh. Furthermore Levengood has patents granted for systems that claim to increase wheat yield through pseudo-scientific means. None of these methods work however as evidenced by his complete failure to make his fortune from the patented ideas.

Has anyone seen the articles on Dr. Eltjo H. Haselhoff, Ph.D. , book and findings?

Yes, they are based upon the same faulty premise as Levengoods work.
We have to simply accept without evidence that there are 'non man made' circles in order to prove that there are non man made circles.
Or to expand on that; He shows a pattern of energy within a crop circle based upon the apparent number and increasing angle of bent nodes located at points though the crop circle. Therefore, we have to accept that 'unknown energy' was responsible for the bent nodes in order to accept the pattern he shows is a sign of unknown energy. And because Haselhoff really does have a Ph.D. some people just think he must know what he's talking about... Because such people couldn't possibly be blinded by a belief.

 

[Pup]

It's not OK but it IS cool. Ya see the aliens circles survived, produced, in some cases produced more than the untouched crops. LOL! You underestimate my insanity, but this is a common report.

Leaving aside all the potential manure jokes...

Depending what stage the crop was trampled in, lodged wheat doesn't necessarily produce less, it just makes it harder to harvest.

Also, stressing plants can actually make them produce more seed, and the parts of grain that we harvest are the seeds, of course, so it's not surprising that wheat with crushed stems would produce more, if the crushing happened early in its growth. It's a natural adaptation to stress--more seed means more chance of survival in a poor environment.

Besides, some fields will produce more or less than others anyway, for other random reasons.

So if one said that alien circles made the grain produce more, while man-made circles made the grain produce the same or less, it would be fairly easy to sort out which were alien-made and which were man-made. The only error would be in the starting premise.

And, of course, we haven't even seen any specific information on the difference in production, how it compared to statistical norms, and how the production was measured (sample size, grain only or grain and straw too, control of harvesting method so hand harvesting isn't compared to machine harvesting, etc.). Got any of that to share?

 

[Stray Cat]

And, of course, we haven't even seen any specific information on the difference in production, how it compared to statistical norms, and how the production was measured (sample size, grain only or grain and straw too, control of harvesting method so hand harvesting isn't compared to machine harvesting, etc.). Got any of that to share?

For a good laugh, you could start here: http://www.bltresearch.com/plantab.php

Mentioned just over halfway down the page:
"(d) Finally, when crop circles occur in mature plants with fully formed seeds, these seeds often exhibit a statistically significant massive increase in growth rate and vigor, with growth-rate up to five times the rate of the control seeds. Further, these seedlings can tolerate extreme stress (lack of water and/or light) for considerable periods of time without apparent harm."

There is also a full list of 'Lab Reports'* on their website most of which have stats (from memory)

* I say Lab Reports... it's actually not a lab, it's Levengood's kitchen.

 

[Stray Cat]

Has anyone seen the articles on Dr. Eltjo H. Haselhoff, Ph.D. , book and findings?

Not enough pictures in this thread BTW