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Cooking?

I reject this new premise of yours also. (That something has an inherent sense of rightness--is "natural to us" --if humans have been doing it for a long time.)

One definition of natural:
"Definition of NATURAL 1: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice> "
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural


We've been doing lots of things since "long back" and yet we don't consider all of them to be moral behavior: murder, marital infidelity, etc.

So is infanticide "natural to us"? How about enslaving other humans?

IMO what humans did since prehistoric times is irrelevant to the question of whether or not something is right or wrong.

Anything can be stamped as natural to us, which our body can process normally without extra load. Body can do it if it has preinformed to it--how to handle that. Means inharent sense of right & wrong.
 
You didn't follow what I wrote. If Kumar is defining "interfering with nature" to mean humans eating anything that interferes with non-human species, then all eating (with the exception of cannibalism) must be considered "interfering with nature".

In the alternative, if Kumar is defining "interfering with nature" very narrowly only to apply to processing and cooking some foods, and then using this definition to argue that processing or cooking some foods is wrong, then the argument is circular (the conclusion is explicit in the premise).

I made no observation about the prevalence of cannibalism as a human activity. (Though that's another good subject for debate. I can cite anthropologists who have argued that many reported examples of cannibalism don't stand up to scrutiny. Also, FWIW, I'm not sure what is meant by "before cultural traditions of burying and burning bodies appeared in human history". There's strong evidence that even Neanderthals buried their dead. And some cultures dispose of dead bodies other ways. I don't think the inability to invent a way to dispose of bodies was ever a reason for cannibalism.)

If we take that life & death is dependant on nature/God and they are only entitled to effect it for keeping the nature in balance, then all our acts done by using our consious mind can be odd BUT if we consider that pruning/thining/weeding etc. done with our consious act is also right to kep nature in balance then both these can be treated as acts done for nature's progess, nature's maintainance and nature's balance....and so may not be an interferance in nature.
 

You have forgitton it :):-

"The appeal to novelty (also called argumentum ad novitatem) is a fallacy in which someone prematurely claims that an idea or proposal is correct or superior, exclusively because it is new and modern. In a controversy between status quo and new inventions, eg. you want to lose weight, your best bet is to follow the latest diet"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty

Appeal to nature/tradition didn't covered "natural to us.
 
If we take that life & death is dependant on nature/God

What do you mean by "nature/God"? This is a bizarre and undefined term you've introduced to a topic you started in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine & Technology subforum.

To say life is dependent on nature is a pointless thing to say. So is death, so is non-life--in fact, so is everything that is not supernatural (and personally, I reject the existence of the supernatural). If by nature you mean non-human life, you really should use more precise language.

And let's leave the "God" stuff out of this discussion. It has no place in this subforum. The Goddidit hypothesis is completely indistinguishable from having no hypothesis at all since there is no measurement you can take that would be different if "Goddidit" or not "Goddidit".

What does this have to do with the flaws in your arguments about the morality of cooking that I've pointed out?

and they are only entitled to effect it for keeping the nature in balance
What do you mean by keeping nature "in balance" and who says we are only entitled to do things that keep nature in balance (whatever that means)?

If you're trying to construct a logical argument leading to a conclusion about a moral proposition, you can't start by simply asserting that moral proposition as if there is some prescriptive law that dictates it. That's just another form of question begging.

consider that pruning/thining/weeding etc. done with our consious act is also right to kep nature in balance then both these can be treated as acts done for nature's progess, nature's maintainance and nature's balance....and so may not be an interferance in nature.
Your reasoning is all over the place. You're introducing one undefined term after another and then arbitrarily applying your premises.

You said earlier that we can't interfere with nature. I pointed out that we must interfere with nature to be alive. (And surely no morality can require that we not do what we must do.) Now you're backing off that premise by adding in this undefined notion of "balance". So interfering with nature isn't interfering with nature when it's for some undefined outcome of keeping nature in balance or maintaining nature. (Does that mean that un-pruned trees aren't natural? That they're out of balance and immoral in their lack of human intervention-that-isn't-interference?)

Now there are real meanings to terms like homeostasis and balance, but that's not how you're using the term. So it's up to you to define your terms or quit introducing new undefined terms. Basically this "balance" silliness is just a way for you to say that some "interference" isn't interference even though by any conventional usage of the word, it is.

It's as if you start from the conclusion you want and make up nonsensical principles (that you refuse to apply in a consistent manner) to try to pretend you've created an argument to arrive at that conclusion.

And I still haven't heard you retract the first one I criticized: the idea that cooking foods that are mature is wrong. In fact, it sounds like you have arbitrarily decided that some foods ought not be cooked, and then you invented this principle to attempt to justify it. When I point out the problem with it (if you attempt to apply it to all foods), you blithely continue employing undefined terms and claiming to use other principles which you will also refuse to apply consistently.
 
One definition of natural:
"Definition of NATURAL 1: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice> "
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural

That's not the way you've been using the term.

At any rate, if what you mean by "natural" is simply inherent morality, why not say that? It has nothing to do with "nature" at all.




Anything can be stamped as natural to us, which our body can process normally without extra load. Body can do it if it has preinformed to it--how to handle that. Means inharent sense of right & wrong.
This word salad seems to point out that your previous statement about something being moral (or "natural") if it's something humans have done "since long back" is false. If anything can be deemed "natural" then your entire thesis about which behaviors are moral and which not (because they are either natural or not natural--which you're now saying is simply a synonym for moral--is pointless. Nothing is natural (moral) and nothing is not natural (immoral) because anything can be natural or not.
 
What do you mean by "nature/God"? This is a bizarre and undefined term you've introduced to a topic you started in the Science, Mathematics, Medicine & Technology subforum.

To say life is dependent on nature is a pointless thing to say. So is death, so is non-life--in fact, so is everything that is not supernatural (and personally, I reject the existence of the supernatural). If by nature you mean non-human life, you really should use more precise language.And let's leave the "God" stuff out of this discussion. It has no place in this subforum. The Goddidit hypothesis is completely indistinguishable from having no hypothesis at all since there is no measurement you can take that would be different if "Goddidit" or not "Goddidit".

I give below few more dict. definitions of nature:-

" NATURE
1a: the inherent character or basic constitution of a person or thing : essence
b: disposition, temperament

2a: a creative and controlling force in the universe
b: an inner force or the sum of such forces in an individual "
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nature
7

a: humankind's original or natural condition

b: a simplified mode of life resembling this condition


"Noun

1.The phenomena of the physical world collectively, including plants, animals, the landscape, and other features and products of the...
2.The physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena: "it is impossible to change the laws of nature".
Synonyms character - kind - temper - disposition - sort - mettle"

Above suggest all things & beings in nature & a physical controlling force to these. Either we say it as nature or God(for understanding).
 
That's not the way you've been using the term.

I have an intuition that Kumar is aiming at the distinction between the natural order of things before the development of intellect and the natural order of things after the development of intellect.

This distinction may be what folk are getting at in various threads which get stuck at this point.

If one were to compare the likely scenarios of before and after this development and then compare the result to a scenario in which this development did not take place. Then the distinction and the resultant natural order of things comes into sharp focus.
 
You have forgitton it :):-

"The appeal to novelty (also called argumentum ad novitatem) is a fallacy in which someone prematurely claims that an idea or proposal is correct or superior, exclusively because it is new and modern. In a controversy between status quo and new inventions, eg. you want to lose weight, your best bet is to follow the latest diet"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty


I didn't mention that because nobody has used it in this thread. You are welcome to give it a try though.

Appeal to nature/tradition didn't covered "natural to us.


Yes, it does.
 
It's natural becase it has "inharent sense of right & wrongW, and it has "inharent sense of right & wrong" because it is natural.

I hope this makes things clear.

When you put it that way ... it becomes so much clearer ;)
 
If we are cooking since long back, then cooked foods can also be treated as natural to us.
And also cannibalism, Kumar, also cannibalism.

You didn't follow what I wrote. If Kumar is defining "interfering with nature" to mean humans eating anything that interferes with non-human species, then all eating (with the exception of cannibalism) must be considered "interfering with nature".

In the alternative, if Kumar is defining "interfering with nature" very narrowly only to apply to processing and cooking some foods, and then using this definition to argue that processing or cooking some foods is wrong, then the argument is circular (the conclusion is explicit in the premise).

I made no observation about the prevalence of cannibalism as a human activity. (Though that's another good subject for debate. I can cite anthropologists who have argued that many reported examples of cannibalism don't stand up to scrutiny. Also, FWIW, I'm not sure what is meant by "before cultural traditions of burying and burning bodies appeared in human history". There's strong evidence that even Neanderthals buried their dead. And some cultures dispose of dead bodies other ways. I don't think the inability to invent a way to dispose of bodies was ever a reason for cannibalism.)

No worries, JoeTheJuggler.
Whatever the theory of why, cannibalism apparently formed part of life in the Atapuerca cave/community. It's an interesting subject and one that sorely taxes the 'back to nature' advocates.
To read more about the findings at Atapuerca
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004724849990324X



One definition of natural:
"Definition of NATURAL 1: based on an inherent sense of right and wrong <natural justice> "
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural




Anything can be stamped as natural to us, which our body can process normally without extra load. Body can do it if it has preinformed to it--how to handle that. Means inharent sense of right & wrong.

Kumar, what does this have to do with fried vs. baked chapatis?
Preinformed?
What do you mean by preinformed?
 
I didn't mention that because nobody has used it in this thread. You are welcome to give it a try though.

It should have been given to compare unnatural/new with natural/traditional one.




Yes, it does.

Nature mean inharent sense of right & wrong. It is gernal term but when we say natural to us, it is specific term to humans. Something, inspite natural may not be natural to us.
 
And also cannibalism, Kumar, also cannibalism.

I haven't heard that any of mine or other near people to me ancecesstors had practiced it. Still if it remained in common practice in mass people since long, inspite became natural but society has disallowed it. Then it become a social issue.






Kumar, what does this have to do with fried vs. baked chapatis?
Preinformed?
What do you mean by preinformed?

Pre-informed---whatever to which our body has sense of right & wrong. If our body understand anything obiouisly it will handle that better in systematic manner. If not, body can be confused to that and may act in odd manner.
 
I have an intuition that Kumar is aiming at the distinction between the natural order of things before the development of intellect and the natural order of things after the development of intellect.

This distinction may be what folk are getting at in various threads which get stuck at this point.

If one were to compare the likely scenarios of before and after this development and then compare the result to a scenario in which this development did not take place. Then the distinction and the resultant natural order of things comes into sharp focus.

Can you tell me history of development of intellect ( I think it is development of concious mind).
 
Can you tell me history of development of intellect (

You don't ask for much, do you? In another thread you asked for a one line explanation of evolution. If you are really interested in a subject then study it.
 
It should have been given to compare unnatural/new with natural/traditional one.






Nature mean inharent sense of right & wrong. It is gernal term but when we say natural to us, it is specific term to humans. Something, inspite natural may not be natural to us.

Do you mean, like food allergies?
Or the celiacs' condition, unable to digest gluten?

I haven't heard that any of mine or other near people to me ancecesstors had practiced it. Still if it remained in common practice in mass people since long, inspite became natural but society has disallowed it. Then it become a social issue. ..

But they have, indeed, Kumar.
That's why I included the links to the paper discussing the Atapuerca findings. I hope you find it interesting.

Pre-informed---whatever to which our body has sense of right & wrong. If our body understand anything obiouisly it will handle that better in systematic manner. If not, body can be confused to that and may act in odd manner.

Not so, at least in the sense of cannibalism.
As you yourself mentioned, there are social restraints in play, not natural ones.
The classic example, of course, is the tragic plane crash in the Andes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1972_Andes_flight_disaster
 

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