Convince and Convert an Atheist

Humphreys said:
Yes, so when Lewis says the Universe has no meaning, he is actually wrong in a way. It does have meaning, to us. Meaning is a subjective thing anyway, it's not something that actually exists, out there somehow, and it certainly isn't a property of the Universe. Such a thing doesn't even seem to make sense.

Anyway, I agree with you.
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Did you actually read the quote? It doesn't sound like you did.

So you believe the universe is objectively meaningless?

Great, if the universe is meaningless, the words you have used, which are part of this universe are just as meaningless.

In effect you have really said nothing.





Thanks for playing.
 
Blutarsky said:
Did you actually read the quote? It doesn't sound like you did.
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Could we get one of those filters like on fark, so that when anyone posts "Did you actually read _____?" the phrase gets turned into something like, "That was very insightful" or maybe just "OMG! Ponies!"
 
Blutarsky said:
Great, if the universe is meaningless, the words you have used, which are part of this universe are just as meaningless.
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Humphreys' point is that the meaning is constructed in our brains, like the sensation of light from our eyes.
 
Nothing CS Lewis wrote ever convinced me that he was a better atheist than he was a believer.

It is not so much we KNOW there is no god, but if an atheist were to say more precisely - there might be a god, how can we assert anything at all? By the same reasoning the sun might come up tomorrow, the moon might still be out there but I can't really say until I've checked today, or have the mountains moved? Are waves still pounding the shore?
 
Blutarsky said:
So you believe the universe is objectively meaningless?

Great, if the universe is meaningless, the words you have used, which are part of this universe are just as meaningless.

In effect you have really said nothing.
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Lewis, in your quote, is really attacking nihilism, not atheism.

Atheists (or, more to the point, naturalists) do not think that "the universe has no meaning". They usually think it has no intrinsic meaning. Meaning is always meaning for someone, there is no absolute meaning even though there may be universal meanings (meanings that happen to be the same for everyone). Lewis isn't really refuting this kind of humanism.
 
Beanbag said:
What'cha offering?:D
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Well, as my first follower, you'd get preferential treatment and an influential position in my religion. Weed, alcohol, ecstacy and group sex is permitted and there is no hell. Also, if you're lucky, I might include you in the dental plan. Whattaya say? :)
 
Darth Rotor said:
As I told The Atheist when this topic first came up in an area where I was having a discussion, I think it a fool's errand to try and spread the Faith via internet argument. IMO, the best way it happens is in person, via a witness that has integrity.
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I would agree that internet evangelism is likely to be ineffective.

But what is present in the in-person encounter that is missing from internet interaction?

Why is the integrity of the witness really important when it's technically God's spirit that imparts faith? (And yet: "Let your light shine before men that they may see the good you do and give glory to God")
 
Blutarsky said:
Did you actually read the quote? It doesn't sound like you did.

So you believe the universe is objectively meaningless?

Great, if the universe is meaningless, the words you have used, which are part of this universe are just as meaningless.

In effect you have really said nothing.
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????

If the universe has no meaning, why do you claim that he said nothing? To the universe, what he said was meaningless. To you, obviously, it was not, or else you wouldn't have responded. That's kinda the definition of "subjective"; you extrapolate your own meaning.

If the universe didn't have a Creator and was, ultimately, meaningless, then would that really change anythng here on Earth? A meaningless universe would change human mindset not a jot; almost all religions in the world are accepted because it "brings meaning" to people. Not because it was enforced on them by a God that came down and forced them to believe in it; and everyone that is religious tends to focus on different parts of that meaning.

Really, I don't get your logic here.
 
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phildonnia said:
I would agree that internet evangelism is likely to be ineffective.

But what is present in the in-person encounter that is missing from internet interaction?

Why is the integrity of the witness really important when it's technically God's spirit that imparts faith? (And yet: "Let your light shine before men that they may see the good you do and give glory to God")
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Y'know, after reading bits of the Koran for World Literature class, I am happy to know that if I'm an unbeliever, it's because God wanted me to. Mohamad was, like, the ultimate determinist.
 
UnrepentantSinner said:
Understand. Just wanted to offer the option. Have you given any thought to more ecumenical religions like Unitarianism or Ba'hai? What about Thereveda Buddhism?
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Right now I'm working the Christian side of the street. I don't want to cast too widely right now. I'm focused and curious to see if there are any cogent talking points for Christianity.

Beanbag
 
Kopji said:
Hey Beanbag!
I heard someone was channeling Huntster so I came by to take a look.
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Not me -- I'm on a quest for information.
Kopji said:
I think they are right about faith being something that is caught rather than taught. Atheism or unbelief is different from faith, I doubt you could 'catch' being an atheist.
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I actually suspect a lot of faith is maintained by simple inertia. Those who "opt in" have a need to fill, and are willing to make the change. Others maintain their faith because its always been that way in their family/community. I suppose if one grew up in an atheist environment, they would maintain their atheism in a similar manner.

Beanbag
 
Mr Clingford said:
One still has to make decisions in life based on incomplete evidence because we only have one life and one can't run a serious of experiments on different choices.
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Says who? I've "field-tested" a number of variables in my life. Some I've kept, others I've discarded. Data sets are never complete. That's why I am willing to adapt to new information.

Response has been heartwarming, but for the most part the major theme has been "believe, because that's what god wants you to do." With the exception of Darth Rotor, who for whatever reason frequents this thread that he insists is a waste of time, it's stayed on target and intellectually genial.

Beanbag
 
Tony said:
Well, as my first follower, you'd get preferential treatment and an influential position in my religion. Weed, alcohol, ecstacy and group sex is permitted and there is no hell. Also, if you're lucky, I might include you in the dental plan. Whattaya say? :)
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Sorry, you're dangling the wrong bait. A well-equipped machine shop, limitless stock to machine with, and a decent level of intellectual conversation would make me consider signing on. Along with the sex -- group or otherwise.:D

Beanbag
(Yeah, I know I'm dull)
 
Beanbag said:
Sorry, you're dangling the wrong bait. A well-equipped machine shop, limitless stock to machine with, and a decent level of intellectual conversation would make me consider signing on. Along with the sex -- group or otherwise.:D
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Same sex or opposite sex? ;)

It's important to clear those things up before signing on.
 
Darth Rotor said:
It isn't about the argument. Which is the point, and of course, you and your ilk aren't even clever enough to look up into the sky and watch it sail over your heads.

Huntster was too nice to you people.

DR
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Is faith then supposed to be immune to rational consideration? It seems to me that the existence of some amazing being such as a god would leave some evidence...

...any evidence at all.

As for missing the point, I was rather making the point that faith should not be something that is judged beyond scientific merit. I'm sorry if your poor reading comprehension/reactionary mindset prevented you from observing such.
 
You should become a Christian because we are really nice people and your life will instantly become so much hapier, and if you give 10% of your GROSS income you will receive so much more in return you will not know what to do with all of your money! oh oh oh and Christians have the best SEX!!! it's a fact.
It's sad that this is what a lot of churches or Christians will lead you to beleive...
The real reason is quit simply...You are a sinner and you are gonna die...10 outta 10 people die... when you die you are going to be judge according to God's law(the 10 comandments) I think it is safe to say you have broken at least 1 of God's laws...So you will be found guilty...now if you repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ, your fine has already been paid, and you will go to Heaven. If you do not you will go to hell for eternity(no matter how many tell you that a loving God would send his children to hell for eternity, it's true). So basically why should you become a Christian? for fear of going to hell if you don't?...No...You should become a Christian because you love God your creator so much that spending eternity away from him and all of his goodness is the absolute worst thing that you could emagine.
This is either something that you beleive in and it makes so much sense to you that it is rediculous, or you do not beleive and this sounds like nonsense, or a fairytale...All I can say is listen to your conscience and read your Bible everyday...Either way you stake your soul on what you decide.I do not think that anyone is capable of "coverting" you...all we can do is witness to you.Hope this helps!
 
jesus_freak said:
You should become a Christian because we are really nice people and your life will instantly become so much hapier, and if you give 10% of your GROSS income you will receive so much more in return you will not know what to do with all of your money! oh oh oh and Christians have the best SEX!!! it's a fact.
It's sad that this is what a lot of churches or Christians will lead you to beleive...
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Church of the Subgenius: Eternal salvation or triple your money back!

The real reason is quit simply...You are a sinner and you are gonna die...10 outta 10 people die...
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I've had worse odds...

when you die you are going to be judge according to God's law(the 10 comandments) I think it is safe to say you have broken at least 1 of God's laws...So you will be found guilty...now if you repent and put your faith in Jesus Christ, your fine has already been paid, and you will go to Heaven.
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So, I'll go to eternal damnation for committing a sin, but if I repent and believe in Jesus, then whatever sins I committed, no matter how atrocious, are suddenly resolved. I know that people commented on this already, but this still seems so arbitrary and unjust. Okay, I should shut up now, as this is supposed to be the OP's thread...

If you do not you will go to hell for eternity(no matter how many tell you that a loving God would send his children to hell for eternity, it's true).
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How do you know that?

So basically why should you become a Christian? for fear of going to hell if you don't?...No...
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Then why even attempt to belabor the point? I don't get it -- "You're going to hell if you don't do this! You will SUFFER FOR ETERNITY! But don't worry about that..." This is a classic tactic... it's like a scare tactic to get you listening, and then a "mercy" tactic to get you going, "oooh, that sounds nice."

You should become a Christian because you love God your creator so much that spending eternity away from him and all of his goodness is the absolute worst thing that you could emagine.
This is either something that you beleive in and it makes so much sense to you that it is rediculous, or you do not beleive and this sounds like nonsense, or a fairytale...All I can say is listen to your conscience and read your Bible everyday...Either way you stake your soul on what you decide.I do not think that anyone is capable of "coverting" you...all we can do is witness to you.Hope this helps!
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I tried to read the bible, personally. It was so... dense. And hard to follow, really...
 
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