Convince and Convert an Atheist

Miss Anthrope said:
Wow, I just wound up reading a thread on their teen forum entitled "Do you believe the bible is true?" and WOW.
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You should check out the NT for teen girls that they put out a few years ago:

http://www.amazon.com/Revolve-2007-..._bbs_sr_1/002-6537463-8700027?ie=UTF8&s=books

There's one for boys, too:

http://www.amazon.com/Refuel-Comple..._bbs_sr_1/002-6537463-8700027?ie=UTF8&s=books

Their forum layout and ads are very annoying. And I'm astonished to see that every controversial topic has a Christian and a non-Christian section.
 
I've seen that forum it's so... cutesy in a non cute sort of way (if that makes any sense). It's has some of the highest traffic for a message board on the web.http://www.big-boards.com/.
It's even number 13 :D. If you look at what's ranked number 1 and the rest you can clearly see that quantity does not equal quality. This board is at 521 which is good.

I'd say if you want a decent discussion though it would be best to go outside and maybe talk to some educated theologians at least you might have some kind of interesting discussion.
 
Beanbag said:
Sorry. The whole Sunday School experience is one long string of bad memories. I'll try to behave.

However, the songs were pretty inane.

Beanbag
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Plenty of Christians think they're inane, too. See the book, "Why Catholics Can't Sing".
 
Ok, Beanbag (like the name and avatar), do you have a purely materialist outlook? I think that an empirical approach can be a good tool, but what if there is more to existence beyond that which can be (easily) measured and repeatably tested? Do you think there is a chance you might be wrong - do you know that you are right?
 
Beanbag said:
I've come to the conclusion that the defining quality of being a "good" or humane person is empathy. I look at situations and either know from hard experience or through logical reasoning what it would feel like to be in that situation. It has nothing to do with any divine guidance or commandments. I look at something and make a judgment as to whether it is "good" or "evil" based on the level of harm it would do to others. I've seen so much of what I don't want to be, had a lot of things done to me that I wouldn't do or wish on others. It's a moral compass, if you will, that I let guide my decisions. It isn't based on a threat of divine retribution or eternal torment if I choose to do certain things.
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Minor sidetrack --

I heard a lecture recently where an important distinction was made between "empathy" and "sympathy". Empathy is the ability to recognize the possible emotional state of others, while sympathy has the added dimension of caring about that emotional state. Without empathy, bullying, intimidation, and psychological manipulation would be impossible, but moral conduct requires sympathy.

Sidetrack over.
 
Beanbag said:
Frankly, the two choices offered by Standard Christianity (either heaven or hell) don't appeal to me. Neither option has any definite evidence that they exist. I go with what I know: I have no memories, good or bad, of before I was born and my consciousness switched on. I suspect it will be the same after I've died. Just nothingness. I get a certain amount of comfort from this concept.
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I think the standard line is that souls are created when you are conceived, and then they are semi-infinite. Or rather, once you join God in heaven, you are "outside time and space" like God and the angels are, and so the time evolution of the Universe doesn't affect you anymore. It always seemed like a much worse punishment to exist for eternity than to cease to exist (talk about ultimate boredom), but sometimes I hear it phrased this way, that you don't experience time the same way after you die. Maybe it's like in Slaughterhouse Five, where you experience all time at once.

You can't PROVE that there's no afterlife-- no one can. If you can take it on faith that the Christian God created the Universe and knows what's going on, He tells us that the only way to eternal life is to believe in Jesus.

However, if you don't find the theological arguments convincing, there are also the cultural aspects of Christianity. Even though the historical Jesus was most likely an apocalyptic Jew calling for a revolution against the Romans and the Pharisees, the perspective of Jesus as an anti-capitalist ("sell all of your possessions and follow me"), peace-loving ("turn the other cheek") hippie is kind of appealing to me. I find little to argue with in the Sermon on the Mount.

You could start with this, join a liberal Christian church, and "fake it till you make it." Maybe you have to go this far before Jesus comes to live in your heart and then you know that being a Christian is the right way to live.
 
Mr Clingford said:
Ok, Beanbag (like the name and avatar), do you have a purely materialist outlook? I think that an empirical approach can be a good tool, but what if there is more to existence beyond that which can be (easily) measured and repeatably tested? Do you think there is a chance you might be wrong - do you know that you are right?
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I deal with what I can see or detect. I don't do "believe, then you'll see." If something can't be measured or detected reliably and repeatedly, then there's something wrong, either with what you're trying to measure or in your experimental design. I don't think it is wise to depend on something unreliable for issues as weighty as those religion purports to mediate.

I love it when I'm shown to be wrong, or let's make that "in error"; wrong has such criminal connotations.

Beanbag
 
mfaison said:
I think the standard line is that souls are created when you are conceived, and then they are semi-infinite. Or rather, once you join God in heaven, you are "outside time and space" like God and the angels are, and so the time evolution of the Universe doesn't affect you anymore. It always seemed like a much worse punishment to exist for eternity than to cease to exist (talk about ultimate boredom), but sometimes I hear it phrased this way, that you don't experience time the same way after you die. Maybe it's like in Slaughterhouse Five, where you experience all time at once.
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Nice supposition, but totally without any support. It could be like the line from George Carlin, where when you die, your soul goes to a garage in Buffalo, NY. I also recall a quote loosely attributed to Mark Twain about where the more interesting people are in hell.

mfaison said:
You can't PROVE that there's no afterlife-- no one can. If you can take it on faith that the Christian God created the Universe and knows what's going on, He tells us that the only way to eternal life is to believe in Jesus.
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Same token: you can't prove there IS an afterlife. Islam wants you to believe in Allah, and that Mohammed is his one true prophet.

mfaison said:
You could start with this, join a liberal Christian church, and "fake it till you make it." Maybe you have to go this far before Jesus comes to live in your heart and then you know that being a Christian is the right way to live.
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So your advice is to go through the motions until it becomes automatic and takes over? That really isn't convincing at all.

Beanbag
 
Glen.Nogami said:
What is it about seeing someone in person that makes arguments more convincing than reading their words?
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It isn't about the argument. Which is the point, and of course, you and your ilk aren't even clever enough to look up into the sky and watch it sail over your heads.

Huntster was too nice to you people.

DR
 
Beanbag said:
This is an open invitation for Christians out there to open a discussion with a true, dedicated atheist. I want to hear and understand why I should become a Christian.

This IS NOT being done in an antagonistic fashion -- I'm not out to argue with you, or attempt to convert you to my way of thinking. I want to hear from your point of view without either of us raising our hackles and spitting at each other. TALK WITH ME. I will listen and reply, either with comments or questions.

I ask that we remain civilized here. Being an open forum, remember that others can see what's going on here. If anyone begins behaving badly, I'll Ignore you, and you'll lose the opportunity. The same goes for any "nonbelievers" -- I don't want this thread derailed and taken off too the wild blue whatever.

These are the starting conditions. I'll give you some information about my personal beliefs in the following post.

Regards;
Beanbag
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Are you only open to christianity? Is there anyway I can convince you to worship and deify me?
 
mfaison said:
You could start with this, join a liberal Christian church, and "fake it till you make it." Maybe you have to go this far before Jesus comes to live in your heart and then you know that being a Christian is the right way to live.
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In hindsight, I can see a parallel with the sense of right and "wrong" that I use as a moral compass. Obviously, I developed the standards through personal experience. I suppose one could develop a religious "bent" by walking the walk for a while. Need to consider this for a while.

Thanks.
Beanbag
 
Darth Rotor said:
It isn't about the argument. Which is the point, and of course, you and your ilk aren't even clever enough to look up into the sky and watch it sail over your heads.
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Ooh, is there evidence up there? I spend a lot of time looking up, and I'm not seeing it. In fact, the more I look out at the Universe, the more evidence I see that there's no need for God.
 
Beanbag said:
I freely admit the likelihood of my grasping faith from this thread is very unlikely, but I would like to at least come away better informed.
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That won't happen as the result of an internet forum discussion.

DR
 
Beanbag said:
In hindsight, I can see a parallel with the sense of right and "wrong" that I use as a moral compass. Obviously, I developed the standards through personal experience. I suppose one could develop a religious "bent" by walking the walk for a while. Need to consider this for a while.
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Like I wrote in my first post, I think there is a Christian worldview that's an important part of the faith. I went to a fundie church for 18 years and grew up in the Bible Belt, so I'm kind of familiar with why many Christians value their outlook on life. You can also lurk around on that Christian forum and get a sense of it.

Evangelicals believe that God wants everyone to be a Christian, that's one of the unique things about the Christian God (The Jewish God doesn't want everyone to be Jewish, nor does Shiva want everyone to be Hindu). So if Christians witness to you and bring you the Word, it's up to you to be open to accept it. Matthew 7:7: "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."

But I'm obviously playing "Devil's advocate" here... I wish a real Christian would speak up in this thread. Where's Jesus_Freak when you need him?
 
Darth Rotor said:
It isn't about the argument. Which is the point, and of course, you and your ilk aren't even clever enough to look up into the sky and watch it sail over your heads.DR
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If it's a matter of taking time to stop and appreciate the beauty and wonder around you, I do that frequently. That might be because I'm visually driven and detail-oriented, where I can spend hours appreciating small parts of larger congregations.

The finest night I ever spent was in a meadow in the Galiuro (?sp) Mountains, flat on my back, watching a clear sky, seeing meteors and orbital objects.

The difference is I see the beauty and appreciate the wonder, but I don't see the divinity behind it.

Beanbag
 
mfaison said:
But I'm obviously playing "Devil's advocate" here... I wish a real Christian would speak up in this thread. Where's Jesus_Freak when you need him?
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How about a True Scotsman? At least they are snappy dressers.

DR
 
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