Continuation - Ukraine erupts in riots and general strikes

[jimbob]

Focus. I was "claiming" in context that Brown Noses' work on that event has also been shown to be fraudulent. I think I provided you evidence for it you ignored as usual. This is an actual chemical weapons expert writing:

And you ignored the more fundamental problems with the project management aspects of organising such a false-flag operation in the middle of a battle.

I take it you have never tried running any simple project?

<SNIP>

Edited by jsfisher: 

Off-topic content removed for compliance with the Membership Agreement.

 

[Childlike Empress]

News from "Texas":

 

[Childlike Empress]

So yesterday the SA Azov battalion was having a little ratmobile parade in Mariupol. Apparently the people preferred to stay home. Video:

 

[magellan]

Still no evidence he's a real forensic specialist. Strikes me more as one of those Birther Adobe analysis types.

Just a little reminder why you owe Caveman1917 a new ironymeter

What is bellingcat's response, and how much of their analysis depends on compression artifact clustering, and how much does the compression artifact discussion support your overall conclusion?

Funny. A few days ago you had all the information you needed to make a judgement, and now you don't.

Do you have a computer with access to the internet? This is all very easy to find out.
But Ok.

a) They ignore that part and concentrate on the dating issue (like any good PR outlet would)

b) All of it. there is the second part of the argument concerning false dates. But this relies on google earth dates, which are guesswork. (Google buys images from providers who not always supply exact dates.) Now they bought digital globe images, and claim that they have been taken on 17. june 11:08, but it clearly wasn't taken at the same time as the russian image and the changes can happen within hours. (I haven't done a ELA analysis of the digital globe images. They are propably fake )

And you have to trust them on the date. They have proven more than once that one should not.

 

[caveman1917]

Just a little reminder why you owe Caveman1917 a new ironymeter

Luckily my new one hasn't arrived yet, or it would also have broken over calling some wikipedia editors "Pro-Russian trolls" without any sort of evidence whilst saying that calling an editor a "Pro-Western troll" with piles of documentation behind it is "unsubstantiated conspiracy theory".

 

[caveman1917]

What is bellingcat's response

Their response to Postol's and Lloyd's 44 page off-the-cuff remark was that Postol is an outcast. [just making sure you don't have too high expectations]

 

[caveman1917]

And you ignored the more fundamental problems with the project management aspects of organising such a false-flag operation in the middle of a battle.

As CE said, focus. The claim was not that Ghouta was a false flag but that Bellingcat's (or rather the people who later became Bellingcat) analysis was flawed, to put it mildly.

 

[caveman1917]

Video

They also posted a video of it on their own channel


Interesting show of equipment they use as well. Azov would be rather the Waffen-SS than the SA, as by their use of the wolfsangel banner and position in the Ukrainian military structure.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Some interesting recent developments.

• On Porky's request, the Rada voted to remove Nalivaychenko as chief of SBU. He's one of the core team of putschists and should go straight to The Hague. Likely he (an US-Citizen) will go to Washington instead.
• Two people have been arrested for the murder of Oles Buzina. Unsurprisingly, they are known neo-Nazis and members of the usual suspect "voluntary" battalions of the "Anti"-Terror-Operation.
• The head of a battalion "Tornado" and some comrades have been arrested over several crimes including rape and torture. They are known career criminals and had been heading another battalion that was disbanded in late 2014. The remaining "Tornado" members seem to refuse to disband and are holed up somewhere in a school in the putschist-occupied part of Lugansk oblast.
• In a rather bizarre move of events, Porky appealed to the constitutional court asking to recognize the ousting of Yanukovych as illegitimate. Yep, and that's nothing Sputnik News made up: (US-)loyalist Kyiv Post reports it as well.
• And last but not least, to spoil the good that might lie in these news, along comes John "Insane" McCain satisfying his habit of meeting with criminals in foreign countries. This time he chose Dnepropetrovsk where he did some photo-ops with members of the Dnepr-1 battalion, also known as Kolomoiski's private mercenary army.

 

[caveman1917]

This time he chose Dnepropetrovsk where he did some photo-ops with members of the Dnepr-1 battalion, also known as Kolomoiski's private mercenary army.

He also finances the Aidar (the one with the chics with Waffen-SS symbols on their vans), Azov (no comment needed) and Donbass (where they put the people with enough self-control to not actually be waving Waffen-SS symbols in front of the cameras, but their actions still speak for themselves) battalions.

ETA: of note is that all of these are official units of the Ukrainian interior ministry, they are just called "volunteer battalions".

 

[Childlike Empress]

ETA: of note is that all of these are official units of the Ukrainian interior ministry, they are just called "volunteer battalions".

They were "integrated" in late 2014 IIRC, with a few exceptions like Right Sektor which are still roaming freely even on paper.

Another high-level military defection to Donetsk (he sounds like a "Kremlin troll", n'est-ce pas?):

 

[Childlike Empress]

Meanwhile in Kiev: Two bomb attacks on Russian banks while peaceful protesters are at the embassy demanding to leave Ukraine to the Ukrainians and to pull weapons and soldiers out. The US embassy, that is:

 

[Childlike Empress]

McCain has already moved on to Slovakia where he's at some conference whining again about how "Russia is winning the information war". After all USA USA USA invented the internet, so there must be a way to counter how the evil Russkies use it. Well, Johnboy, maybe if it wouldn't be the truth and in evidence that you are an insane warmongering old freak that travels around the world to meet and arm the scum of the neighbourhood, it would be easier to counter that "propaganda"...


edit: btw, re:his "good old days" remark about "Radio Free Europe": That's still active especially in Ukraine and is under supervision of the state-sponsored propaganda bullhorn "Broadcasting Board of Governors" which has a budget more than twice that of RT, so I'm not sure if throwing more money at it will help.

 

[jimbob]

Are you actually claiming that Russia hasn't been sponsoring the separatists from the start?

 

[magellan]

Oh boy. Just read the german translation of this:
http://jewishbusinessnews.com/2015/06/19/george-soros-a-winning-strategy-for-ukraine/

It was published in die welt and other german language newspapers. This is the first english version that google spits out.

I particulary like this bit in the beginning

But most revolts do not endure; their energy is exhausted quickly – as with Ukraine’s Orange Revolution a decade ago. Today’s Ukraine is one of the rare cases in which protest is transformed into a constructive, nation-building project. Although I participated in that transformation process, I confess that even I underestimated the new Ukraine’s resilience.

 

[caveman1917]

They were "integrated" in late 2014 IIRC

I thought it was before summer 2014. Doesn't matter really, it was a formality anyway.

 

[caveman1917]

Are you actually claiming that Russia hasn't been sponsoring the separatists from the start?

Not sure who you're asking, but as far as I know there is evidence of indirect support since pretty much the start, and direct support and weapons well after the military conflict was underway. There is also evidence that the US has been sponsoring the Ukrainian nationalists since 1945.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I thought it was before summer 2014. Doesn't matter really, it was a formality anyway.

Indeed.

I looked up that event McCain was on. The "Bratislava Global Security Forum", aka GLOBSEC. Seems like a mini "Munich Security Conference", only without the slightest figleaf of independence. Star guest, if it isn't Johnboy: David Camoron. Over the 10 years of existence,

GLOBSEC's guest list has included Zbigniew Brzezinski, Donald Tusk, Toomas Hendrik Ilves, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, John Allen, Radosław Sikorski, Carl Bildt, Ahmed Rashid, George Friedman, Franco Frattini and other personalities.

Yawn. Partners: The "Slovak Atlantic Commission", "Strategy Council - Empowering Central Europe in Global Affairs", Slovak foreign ministry and presidency, and "NATO". LOL

 

[Matthew Ellard]

There is also evidence that the US has been sponsoring the Ukrainian nationalists since 1945.

That was interesting. I think a complimentary book to this would be the Mitrokhin Archives, as that has a chapter that discusses the FSB/KGB's post war efforts to suppress insurgencies in former Nazi occupied areas in the immediate post war period.

There is another book, that I can't remember, that explains that most of the "illegals" sent into Baltic and south soviet entry points were quickly arrested due to long, complex, leaky, communication lines and "turned" local friendlies.

It is hard to see any UK or US support for internal insurgencies having any "weight or success" until "Solidarity" in Poland and (if you expand, in Soviet Afghanistan), and even then Solidarity was pretty well home grown.

I also think that people are not picking up on the religious element that Russians see their origins from the Kievan Russ under King Rurick. The desire to hold on to Ukraine is not just retaining the old Soviet union, but also their medieval historic origins. ( What I'm trying to say is some USA people see their Christian origins as being in Israel and we have to consider some Russian people see their origins in Kiev....and thus another level of emotion exists, that can be explored and smoothed through open dialogue.)

 

[caveman1917]

9 March 2015 poll (more in link)

The greatest potential consensus lies in Ukraine affirming a neutral position between the EU and Russia. Overall 63 percent say they could find this at least tolerable, while 31 percent say it is unacceptable. Majorities in three of the major regions find this at least tolerable (North 71 percent, South 65 percent, East 74 percent) as does 67 percent even in in the rebel-held areas. The West however is divided between those who would find it at least tolerable (48 percent) and those saying it would be unacceptable (48 percent).

As violence between the Ukraine government and Russian-supported separatist rebels in the East has grown, more voices have called for the United States to provide military aid to the Ukraine government. A majority of Ukrainians support this move, but the majority is slight (52 percent) and views are highly disparate among the various regions. Large majorities favor the idea in the West (77 percent) and the North (61 percent). However, in the East, 62 percent are opposed (53 percent strongly) while the South is divided (46 percent in favor, 43 percent opposed).

A related finding is that only 48 percent approve of the government using military force to try to regain territory held by separatist groups in eastern Ukraine. Majorities favor it in the West and and North, views are divided in the South, and a large majority opposes it in the East. Large majorities in all regions approve of the September 2014 Minsk agreement, which was the basis for the February Minsk Agreement. In both rebel-held areas and Ukrainian-controlled Donbass, large majorities approve of the agreement.