Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

Wrong, if they had opted for fast track i.e. opting for not defending themselves, they would have gotten "live" as the prosecution asked for, since the daytime isolation would have been their discount...

Wrong. They would still have a defense and an appeal. Fast track is just abbreviated. PM Mignini pleaded for life, but Massei granted youth mitigation, so obviously they were eligible.

 

[Vixen]

I have had and given plenty of hickeys. My father use to call them "war wounds". But that of course was when I was a kid. So I know how to recognize them. Didn't you ever "go parking"? If you did you might have learned something.

Certainly not.

 

[Methos]

Wrong. They would still have a defense and an appeal. Fast track is just abbreviated. PM Mignini pleaded for life, but Massei granted youth mitigation, so obviously they were eligible.

Nope, PM Mignini pleaded for life plus isolation, the discount would have been the isolation, so "fast track" wasn't an option, even if guilty...
ETA: going "fast track" is trading a proper defense for a 1/3 discount of the sentence, i.e. chosing to not defend oneself..

 

[Vixen]

Your narrative contains anachronisms since Amanda was safely ensconced in jail before bleach even became an issue in her case.

Bleach only became an issue AFTER Napoleoni and Donninoi had ground down on Amanda during the wee hours of Nov 6th, so those two dopes never would have thought to ask Amanda about bleach that night. This can be confirmed by checking the interrogation recordings from that night.

Bleach only became an issue when detectives searched Raffaele's apartment and claimed to have smelled bleach there, but it was only Lysoform detergent they smelled.

When they couldn't find incriminating DNA evidence against either Amanda or Raffaele in Meredith's bedroom, likely Stefanoni had informed the prosecution that bleach can destroy DNA, which then spawned all the subsequent nonsense about bleach receipts, and the such.

The prosecutors may have later questioned Amanda about bleach, but by that time Amanda had an attorney and she had long ago escaped undue pressure from Napoleoni and Donninoi in one of their inquisition rooms.

Misconstruction and misrepresentation again. The TIMES was reporting the bleach issue almost from Day 1. Long before the trial.

ETA The bleach issue at the time was strongly focused on Raff, not Amanda.

 

[acbytesla]

Certainly not.

You're confirming everything I thought about you. I'm so sorry. No wonder you hate women.

 

[acbytesla]

Misconstruction and misrepresentation again. The TIMES was reporting the bleach issue almost from Day 1. Long before the trial.

It just goes to show you that their writers didn't fail creative writing.

 

[Bill Williams]

By all accounts, Amanda didn't even know the English word for, "soap".

AIUI Wuintavalle's is designed as a supermarket, where you help yourself. ACE is manufactured in Romania, but it's not rocket science to guess what it is.

Vixen is flooding this thread.

 

[Vixen]

Enjoing sex doesn't make you a degenerate. Abhoring others for enjoying it does make you a baddie in my book.

FYI: I don't worship Amanda or Monica or any human being. I do admire people who do not crawl back into the shadows because prissy, frigid sexless witches want them to.

Sex is not immoral. What I think is immoral is slut shaming misogynists who want women to feel ashamed of having a sexual thought.

Where is your citation anybody called Amanda a witch or slut, apart from barrister Pacelli for Patrick?

Do you have any evidence witches are frigid, as my wiccan acquaintances seem to have a right jolly time of it?

Who is the misogynist? I would suggest you, with your sexist comments and assumptions.

No, sex is not immoral, sexual immorality is.

 

[Dougm]

Where is your citation anybody called Amanda a witch or slut, apart from barrister Pacelli for Patrick?

Do you have any evidence witches are frigid, as my wiccan acquaintances seem to have a right jolly time of it?

Who is the misogynist? I would suggest you, with your sexist comments and assumptions.

No, sex is not immoral, sexual immorality is.

What? I missed that part. I have been too busy "championing promiscuity".

 

[acbytesla]

Where is your citation anybody called Amanda a witch or slut, apart from barrister Pacelli for Patrick?

Do you have any evidence witches are frigid, as my wiccan acquaintances seem to have a right jolly time of it?

Who is the misogynist? I would suggest you, with your sexist comments and assumptions.

No, sex is not immoral, sexual immorality is.

Are you trying to flip this discussion and avoid the fact that you don't like Amanda because she was a healthy young woman exploring her sexuality?

That somehow that makes her guilty of a heinous crime? You can't even point to a phone call or a text between Rudy and Amanda/Raffaele, yet your mind is so sick and twisted you think that they would engage in some kind of violent rape murder with this stranger. That's not only sick, it's STUPID.

You have constantly referred to Amanda as dirty, immoral and some kind of degenerate. You with your snide comments based on nonsense. Moronic little remarks about soap.

It all makes me feel very sorry.

 

[Strozzi]

LOL. The cops, the prosecutor, the forensic scientists and the pathologist were all a bunch of dirty liars. . . . .

Vixen, I don't think the pathologist was but I agree with you that the cops, the prosecutor, and the (police) forensic scientists were all a bunch of dirty liars.

 

[acbytesla]

Vixen, I don't think the pathologist was but I agree with you that the cops, the prosecutor, and the (police) forensic scientists were all a bunch of dirty liars.

In all fairness Volturno didn't lie. I sure there were a few cops that didn't lie. Just some of the cops, prosecutors, forensic techs lied.

 

[Numbers]

Nope, PM Mignini pleaded for life plus isolation, the discount would have been the isolation, so "fast track" wasn't an option, even if guilty...
ETA: going "fast track" is trading a proper defense for a 1/3 discount of the sentence, i.e. chosing to not defend oneself..

Adding some detail on how the "fast-track trial" - also called "summary trial" or "abbreviated trial" - the giudizio abbreviato works:

"The ordinary first-instance criminal {investigation and trial} process {for serious or "felony" crimes} is divided into three phases." These are: 1. Preliminary investigation (lasting 6 months to 1 year, or even 18 months); 2. Preliminary hearing - which determines whether or not to dismiss the case or proceed to trial; and 3. Trial under full adversarial procedures, in which witnesses are heard and new evidence may be admitted. (1)

In the fast-track trial, "the accused {defendant} requests, during the preliminary hearing, to be judged on the evidence unilaterally gathered during preliminary investigations and defense investigations. The 'beyond-any-reasonable-doubt' rule is applied and, in case of conviction, the official concession is the reduction of the sentence {with all circumstances considered} by one third." (1, 2)

A life sentence is replaced by a sentence of 30 years imprisonment, and a life sentence with daytime solitary confinement shall be replaced by a life sentence. (2)

Sources:

1. The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed.: M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, & F. Scarpa, Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014, p 44

2. Ibid, CPP Article 442

 

[acbytesla]

Adding some detail on how the "fast-track trial" - also called "summary trial" or "abbreviated trial" - the giudizio abbreviato works:

"The ordinary first-instance criminal {investigation and trial} process {for serious or "felony" crimes} is divided into three phases." These are: 1. Preliminary investigation (lasting 6 months to 1 year, or even 18 months); 2. Preliminary hearing - which determines whether or not there to dismiss the case or proceed to trial; and 3. Trial under full adversarial procedures, in which witness are heard and new evidence may be admitted. (1)

In the fast-track trial, "the accused {defendant} requests, during the preliminary hearing, to be judged on the evidence unilaterally gathered during preliminary investigations and defense investigations. The 'beyond- any-reasonable-doubt' rule is applied and, in case of conviction, the official concession is the reduction of the sentence {with all circumstances considered} by one third." (1, 2)

A life sentence is replaced by a sentence of 30 years imprisonment, and a life sentence with daytime solitary confinement shall be replaced by a life sentence. (2)

Sources:

1. The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed.: M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, & F. Scarpa, Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014, p 44

2. Ibid, CPP Article 442

Don't you just love reading her posts? Broken watches have a better record.

 

[Numbers]

Don't you just love reading her posts? Broken watches have a better record.

Watches don't have the intent to deceive.

 

[MichaelB]

Yes that's a problem. I think the summaries are more likely to mislead.

Thanks as always for your efforts. Do you all have access to everything? Specifically do you have the information that would show if the cash register was sequestered and when? Did the PLE provide all their notes about the case? Does anybody even know when a person first contacted or was contacted by the PLE?

Obviously none of this matters, but for some putting a jigsaw puzzle is a challenge and for others a waste of time. I'm not just interested in what really happened but when and what was known to the defense.

The only thing I've come across regarding cash registers were to do with Lumumba's pub and a certain Alfredo Costarelli. I dunno who he was, Methos might know.

They haven't been translated yet either.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co.../2007-11-07-Witness-deposition-Costarelli.pdf

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...n-Costarelli-Lumumba-cash-register-report.pdf

 

[Bill Williams]

Are you trying to flip this discussion and avoid the fact that you don't like Amanda because she was a healthy young woman exploring her sexuality?

That somehow that makes her guilty of a heinous crime? You can't even point to a phone call or a text between Rudy and Amanda/Raffaele, yet your mind is so sick and twisted you think that they would engage in some kind of violent rape murder with this stranger. That's not only sick, it's STUPID.

You have constantly referred to Amanda as dirty, immoral and some kind of degenerate. You with your snide comments based on nonsense. Moronic little remarks about soap.

It all makes me feel very sorry.

Vixen made 34 posts in three hours starting at about 11 pm her time. The general theme was one of slut-shaming.

This is flooding the thread.

 

[Planigale]

Thanks, Grinder, unlike some, I don't make things up. Sure, souces can be erroneous, but my facts are generally from reasonably reliable sources. Of course, Richard Owen of the TIMES is only as good as his sources, but you can see from these early reports, as far as the police were concerned, it was an open and shut case.

Enter the spin doctors...

This is the truest thing Vixen has written.

1) Vixen's sources are erroneous.
2) Richard Owen is only as good as his sources (erroneous).
3) As far as the police were concerned it was an open and shut case (and then it fell apart as Lumumba had an alibi, the shoe prints turned out to be not Sollecito's, Knox and Sollecito maintained their innocence, and the DNA and fingerprints identified Guede as the perpetrator).

 

[Numbers]

While the Italian judicial system may choose to let the aggravated continuous calunnia against the police charges simply expire through repeated continuations, their existence and however far they progress will be a consideration for the ECHR when it reviews Amanda's claims against Italy for her conviction for calunnia against Patrick Lumumba.

You wish.

The ECHR will recognize retaliation and intimidation by authorities as an element to be considered in a case.

An example:

ISKANDAROV v. RUSSIA
17185/05 23/09/2010

Regarding Tajikistan (Iskandarov was, in violation of the Convention, kidnapped by Russian State agents and sent to Tajikistan apparently for political "offenses".), from para. 88:

Arbitrary arrest and detention remained serious problems. The law, which is an amended holdover from the Soviet era, allows for lengthy pre-trial detention, and there are few checks on the power of prosecutors and police to make arrests.

Impunity remained a serious problem, and officers who committed abuses were rarely prosecuted. The Government acknowledged that police and security forces were corrupt and that most citizens who were abused chose to remain silent rather than risk retaliation by authorities.
ETA: Sounds a bit like Italy on one of its bad days.

 

[Planigale]

Planigale, one minute you are saying the smell of bleach dissipates very quickly, now you are claiming it should last all night in time for cops to get a whiff of it.

Which is it to be?

Well if you believe that Knox bought bleach that morning, on the way from Sollecito's to her flat, to use it to clean the crime scene, then the bleach would have been used that morning. If you believe the postal police arrived unexpectedly they presumably interrupted cleaning. You previously said you thought Knox was found with a mop in her hand by the postal police. So on this train of thought the bleach would be fresh. Not only would Sollecito / Knox have to make a series of phone calls but also get rid of all the cleaning materials without the police noticing, or subsequently Filomena and friends.

My point is none of this makes sense.