Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Yeah, what are the odds that at an apparent break-in at an upper story rock smashed window above climbable metal bars, multiple forensic traces were found of a guy who was linked by criminal evidence to a previous break-in at an upper story rock smashed window above climbable metal bars, and he was the one responsible for both break-ins? That's too crazy to even consider.

This is what one would describe as the application of logic. It is not evidence that Rudy broke into the cottage. But certainly is a clue. Another clue is his break in at the nursery.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yeah, what are the odds that at an apparent break-in at an upper story rock smashed window above climbable metal bars, multiple forensic traces were found of a guy who was linked by criminal evidence to a previous break-in at an upper story rock smashed window above climbable metal bars, and he was the one responsible for both break-ins? That's too crazy to even consider.

But Marasca did say this, no?

Or was that in the preamble reciting the issues raised by the defense, that Nencini didn't take into account that Guede had used a similar means of entry in previous break-ins.

I'm still actually unclear as to Marasca's position on the issue of the break-in, and of multiple attackers.

If anyone knows, and has any citation to the Marasca report, I'd appreciate it.

Serious responses only please.

 

[Numbers]

Analemma you are fast becoming my favourite poster. There is a naive charm about your posts, matched only by the graffiti in the Ladies toilets in Camden Town. ("This is where **** happens.")

It might have escaped you but the issue of calunnia is res judicata, which means legally decided and can be decided no more. Bruno-Marasca did throw out the aggravated part of calunnia "because of guilt in the murder".

In addition, your heroine is now currently undergoing a repeat offence of calunnia. How will that look to the ECHR?

As Oscar Wilde said, or was it Karl Marx, "Once in history is a tragedy, twice is a farce" and "to lose your wife once is unfortunate, but twice is carelessness".

So don't stock up on the ECHR popcorn just yet.

Will it be an open court? If so, I might hop on a train to Brussels (?) to watch that.

The issue of res judicata in Italy in relation to ECHR findings of Art 6 human rights violations was adjudicated some years ago. As a result and constitutionally at that, an ECHR finding trumps an Italian court decision. Res judicata is set aside. The current callunia trial, which will never be completed, is simply more grist to Amanda's mill. Where else in the world can a defendant be indicted for offering a defence on the witness stand alleging an assault, such an allegation, of course, which was never investigated?

The matter is not complex, though seemingly not understood by the Italian Supreme court - lawyerless statements cannot be used to convict. This includes verbal and written statements and takes in Mignini's interview with Amanda and the 1st memoriale. This is Italian law!

Kauffer,

Your rebuttal of the post you have responded to is correct.

To add some detail, and restating some facts about the ECHR procedure for the benefit of those who may not be aware, the ECHR is not an appeals court, and does not overturn domestic court decisions. It does, however, have the authority under the Convention to declare that a person's Convention rights have been violated. With respect to Italy, such an ECHR judgment about a verdict of conviction forces consideration of a revision trial, according to the Italian Constitutional Court. Failure to conduct a revision trial with the Convention rights of the applicant now enforced (or otherwise negating the unfair conviction) is itself a violation of the Convention, and would lead to an additional ECHR judgment against Italy. Italy has previously respected ECHR judgments, and is likely to do so in this case. The procedural law relating to revision trials consists of CPP Art. 630 and Constitutional Court judgment No. 113/2011.

The ECHR does conduct hearings, specifically some by the Grand Chamber, that are open to the public; these are listed on the ECHR home page. But most cases are dealt with by exchanges of pleadings and documents, and there is no public hearing.

Going to Brussels to be at the ECHR is an entertaining idea and shows the depth of research by the poster.

 

[Grinder]

There are copies of all the cellphone records here, as provided by the cellphone providers for the police. Amanda's phone ends ***590 and Mez' ***711 and +44***151.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/File_library:_Police_notices,_summaries_and_documents

No unanswered calls are shown, but there must have been some.

I don't see the logs at the above link - could you link directly to the logs or provide the title?

 

[Bill Williams]

But Marasca did say this, no?

Or was that in the preamble reciting the issues raised by the defense, that Nencini didn't take into account that Guede had used a similar means of entry in previous break-ins.

I'm still actually unclear as to Marasca's position on the issue of the break-in, and of multiple attackers.

If anyone knows, and has any citation to the Marasca report, I'd appreciate it.

Serious responses only please.

And, of course, all these things are such that you'd want maximum confusion.

It's not the translators' job to clear up the confusion, but to accurately represent it if that's what the underlying Italian is all about.

No one in italy seems to care... no one is marching with picket signs in front of Marasca's office. Still, it would be nice if Marasca would write a section #10, for the few of us who still follow this.

 

[Ken Dine]

Michael Chamberlain, accused of murder then cleared of his daughter's dingo-death, said it best. Something akin to, only the falsely accused can know what a precious thing innocence is.

Exoneration can only begin the process of healing and battling PTSD. However, I would argue that wrongful convictions damage the victim's family perhaps more. In this case the Kerchers' have been through a hell which not many can comprehend.

The Hell that the Kercher family has had to endure was the loss of their lovely daughter, Meredith, as a result of a brutal murder, by Guede. No question that such a loss would be horrible for any family to endure, and the Kerchers likely never will fully recover from that loss.

However, in this case the Kercher clan had been actively instrumental in putting the Knox and Sollecito families thru their legal HELL, and perhaps it's a different type of Hell, but a Hell, nonetheless.

As with the Kerchers, the Knox and Sollecito families may never fully recover from their travails, which can be partially laid at the Kercher family's doorstep.

Clearly, Amanda (and her family) and Raffaele (and his family), had NOTHING to do with the tragic death of Meredith, but the Kerchers can't claim the same as to the tragedy of this wrongful prosecution of Amanda & Raffaele since they were active participants in this legal injustice.

My sympathy for the Kerchers' loss only goes so far. The Kerchers owe Amanda & Raffaele (and their families) an apology, but don't hold your breath waiting for that to ever happen.

 

[Grinder]

You mean reversed in a review of trial or reversed following an ECHR adjudication? Some other reason? Does the nature of the conviction matter? Reversal is a process.

We know there have been reversals of convictions in Italy following res judicata and new trials. It was quite the battle to ensure this could happen - a shake up of the justice system.

But I am not aware of a case involving callunia.

I meant the ECHR reviewing a calunnia conviction and declaring it invalid. If that has happened, did the Italians then correct the verdict?

 

[Mike1711]

You are astoundingly bad at law if you don't realise the Bruno-Marasca report is not an exoneration for Amanda. Far from it.

It is a fact Mez' snubbed Amanda halloween.

Read the text message.

Your logical fallacy consists of applying insults and ad hominem.

If you see my comment as an ad hominem, I apologise.

It is frustratingly difficult to get through to you as to the difference between a fact, and an opinion....and worse an opinion dressed up in the clothing of fact.

I have read the text messages and it my considered opinion that the messages between AK and MK are boringly normal. ...but that is my opinion. You can disagree but I will fight you to the death if you present your opinion as fact.

It's not rocket science that AK and RS have been fully exonerated. That is a FACT, like it or hate it. In my opinion in a totally legal and wholly sane way.

What's your opinion?

 

[Mike1711]

Sackcloth and ashes. Presumably you've been reading the pro-Knox translation which has Amanda calling Mez' scream "heartbreaking".

It was heartbreaking.

Am I guilty too? Tried, sentenced and hung?

 

[Mike1711]

Amanda was so worried about Mez, she had no time to leave a message, "call me"?

ETA it wasn't out of service as Mez' father rang through several times afterwards, so obviously there was a connection for it to be recorded.

You have amazing psychic abilities.

AK had no time to leave a message. You said it. It must be true. Of course your psychic source will remain a secret.

 

[Ken Dine]

Sorry Bill, we don't write "cheques" in the US.

We also don't stand in queues at our banks, which precludes the purchase of a money order.

How about some Bitcoins?

 

[Samzilla]

A pro-guilt person is claiming that Stefanoni did hand over the raw data files. Anyone know on what grounds they may be basing this claim on?

 

[analemma]

Analemma you are fast becoming my favourite poster. There is a naive charm about your posts, matched only by the graffiti in the Ladies toilets in Camden Town. ("This is where **** happens.")
It might have escaped you but the issue of calunnia is res judicata, which means legally decided and can be decided no more. Bruno-Marasca did throw out the aggravated part of calunnia "because of guilt in the murder".
In addition, your heroine is now currently undergoing a repeat offence of calunnia. How will that look to the ECHR?

As Oscar Wilde said, or was it Karl Marx, "Once in history is a tragedy, twice is a farce" and "to lose your wife once is unfortunate, but twice is carelessness".
So don't stock up on the ECHR popcorn just yet.
Will it be an open court? If so, I might hop on a train to Brussels (?) to watch that.

It is great that you do not like my posts.
Now that you mention it, Your posts are always trite or ridiculously inaccurate or childishly insulting and off the point or are predicting something that is almost sure not to happen.
I am quite aware of the present trials, which will have no affect on the ECHR at all.
I even doubt that your Oscar Wilde quote is accurate..

 

[Grinder]

A pro-guilt person is claiming that Stefanoni did hand over the raw data files. Anyone know on what grounds they may be basing this claim on?

Maybe this from Marasca:

With reference to the alleged bloody traces in the other rooms, mainly in the
corridor, there is even an obvious misrepresentation of evidence. Indeed the S.A.L.
of the Scientific Police (acronym of “Stato Avanzamento Lavori” [State of Work
Progress], stating the progression of the scientific investigations and their results)
had excluded, thanks to the use of a specific chemical reagent [TMB], that the
traces highlighted by luminol in the concerned rooms were of haematic nature.
These papers, even if duly filed into the trial documents, have been completely
neglected.

 

[LondonJohn]

Way back there was an extensive discussion about text messages and IIRC it was concluded that the carriers at that time in Italy didn't archive messages at all. If they did archive them, even for a few days, the PLE would have had both ends of the Patrick messages immediately.

Perhaps one of the text message mavens will chime in, Anglo?

The content was taken from Kercher's Italian phone, as I recall, and Knox's phone also contained her two sent messages. And it certainly didn't come from the service providers or network operators.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't see the logs at the above link - could you link directly to the logs or provide the title?

This is a consistent tactic employed by this particular member. Almost, and maybe without exception. First, she makes wild claims. Then suggest that the evidence is there if people would only do the work. Then after being pressed, she might offer a link. Unfortunately the evidence and documentation is never there.

An actual verifiable documented source will never be provided. Watch and see.

 

[anglolawyer]

Maybe this from Marasca:

With reference to the alleged bloody traces in the other rooms, mainly in the
corridor, there is even an obvious misrepresentation of evidence. Indeed the S.A.L.
of the Scientific Police (acronym of “Stato Avanzamento Lavori” [State of Work
Progress], stating the progression of the scientific investigations and their results)
had excluded, thanks to the use of a specific chemical reagent [TMB], that the
traces highlighted by luminol in the concerned rooms were of haematic nature.
These papers, even if duly filed into the trial documents, have been completely
neglected.

Isn't that a different point? The raw data question concerns the digital files generated during certain stages of DNA profiling, Conti-Vechiotti asked for these files, a pantomime ensued in which they didn't get them so they settled their report regardless. Then, when a row broke out in front of Hellman, the claim was made that the data has been filed in paper form in October 2008 before Micheli. A fruitless search was made and there is a story of Comodi tryinb to sneak something into the trial file during a hearing and being prevented by Hellman.

We have Machiavelli to tell us all was perfectly fair and above board and that the row over the EDFs is all a smokescreen raised by the defence. Strangeky, none of the scientists looking at this case seem terribly impressed.

Your quote from the IS had them making the extremely simple, crushinb point, made here already at least 100 times, that the the luminol did not reveal blood since the (suppressed) TMB results were negative.

 

[Mr Fied]

The content was taken from Kercher's Italian phone, as I recall, and Knox's phone also contained her two sent messages. And it certainly didn't come from the service providers or network operators.

I think the records I saw were taken from Knox's phone.

It says the SMS sent and received and stored on the phones memory.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Amanda-Knox-Text-Messages.pdf

 

[LondonJohn]

Maybe this from Marasca:

With reference to the alleged bloody traces in the other rooms, mainly in the
corridor, there is even an obvious misrepresentation of evidence. Indeed the S.A.L.
of the Scientific Police (acronym of “Stato Avanzamento Lavori” [State of Work
Progress], stating the progression of the scientific investigations and their results)
had excluded, thanks to the use of a specific chemical reagent [TMB], that the
traces highlighted by luminol in the concerned rooms were of haematic nature.
These papers, even if duly filed into the trial documents, have been completely
neglected.

That passage is in reference to the TMB tests, rather than DNA testing. That was one of the other areas in which Comodi and Stefanoni lied, obfuscated and blustered.

But specifically in relation to the DNA source data, Comodi blithely claimed at trial that the EDFs had been deposited with the courts way back in the early stages of the court process (pre-Massei). She then had the brass cojones to suggest that it was therefore up to the courts and the defence to find these deposited source-data documents if they wanted to refer to them: the prosecutors had duly deposited them and they were damned if they were going to go to the trouble of providing the information again. "Look - we've already given you this stuff ages ago. We're not giving it to you again. If you want to see the data, it's totally up to you to find the stuff we handed over all that time ago".

Sounds suspiciously like the modus operandi of so many pro-guilt commentators, n'est ce pas.......?

 

[Grinder]

Isn't that a different point? The raw data question concerns the digital files generated during certain stages of DNA profiling, Conti-Vechiotti asked for these files, a pantomime ensued in which they didn't get them so they settled their report regardless. Then, when a row broke out in front of Hellman, the claim was made that the data has been filed in paper form in October 2008 before Micheli. A fruitless search was made and there is a story of Comodi tryinb to sneak something into the trial file during a hearing and being prevented by Hellman.

We have Machiavelli to tell us all was perfectly fair and above board and that the row over the EDFs is all a smokescreen raised by the defence. Strangeky, none of the scientists looking at this case seem terribly impressed.

Your quote from the IS had them making the extremely simple, crushinb point, made here already at least 100 times, that the the luminol did not reveal blood since the (suppressed) TMB results were negative.

Hey dude I was just trying to help figure out what some PG character was talking about

It was an interesting phrasing about even if it were in the court records...