Continuation Part 18: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

You are, if nothing else, a moving target.

I was commenting on your post:



You then called Amanda and Raffaele compulsive liars. What you have not done is list any of the lies they may have told. You just assume what you've been told.

I'll give you a hint. The Machine/Harry Rag once described the lies as he saw them. He actually went to the trouble to actually document his claim - quite unlike many guilters, yourself included.

I can list those claims of lies if you wish. The problem with the list is that they, in the main, concern Raffaele saying things from detention when it was not clear to him what the PLE were claiming he'd done.

In short - it's confirmation bias. If one starts with the assumption that they are killers, then perhaps all those things are lies. Start with any other assumption.... well, you get my dirft.

Which apparently you won't because your place here is simply to hurl invective, and ad hominem, as I expect you will in response to this.

Not an assumption. Confirmed in two courts of law. Time will tell if the latest shower can successfully repudiate the facts found at various merits hearings.

 

[Ken Dine]

I know I'm going to sound like a wet blanket. BUT we will never know so many of these things. Whether they ran into Rudy that night or not. It's reasonable to believe that they did or they didn't, regardless of their testimony.

Since she took her dinner receipt with her to the police station on Nov 12th, I certainly believe that Alessandra Formica was in the vicinity of the cottage that night. Someone (not identifiable) probably did bump into her boyfriend as they descended those stairs.

Because of the timing, I doubt if that person was Guede who bumped into her boyfriend since he was chucking Meredith's phones into that garden around 10:00 pm that night, and Guede certainly had blood on his pants, so walking up those stairs into the heart of town would have been stupid for him to do. Also, there were surely many security cameras on the businesses at the top of those stairs.

Some things you may never know with absolute certainty to the nth degree, but simple logic can tell you that clearly Alessandra Formica didn't have any relevant information to offer. I'm surprised they even called her to testify and waste everyone's time at trial - no wonder trials in Italy last for forever + a day.

We also don't actually know for sure if African like hairs had the police looking for an African man or not. Etc etc, etcetera.

We certainly now know with certainty that the CSI had found some African hairs in Meredith's bedroom since they were consistent with Guede's hairs, and that's a fact.

You can certainly argue that the African hairs were overlooked until later and thus never influenced the direction of the investigation. The logic against that claim would be, then what else was there that would have caused the police to focus in on TWO (2) African suspects in the first 8 days of the investigation?

Guede was mentioned by both Amanda and the boys downstairs, Amanda on the 5th, and the boys probably sooner, on the 2nd or 3rd. However, neither the boys nor Amanda ever said that Guede had acted suspiciously (other than his toilet habits, of course).

Since they arrested Lumumba on the 6th (and announced "CASE CLOSED"), the police obviously didn't turn their attention to Guede until the forensics started clearing Lumumba after Nov 6th, which probably happened around Nov 7th or Nov 8th.

Other than Guede being African, what else could have caused the police to focus in on Guede so quickly after Lumumba was cleared?

The lady and her boyfriend on the stairs didn't mention seeing a Black guy running up the stairs until the 12th of November. Even if she had called and told a detective over the phone about seeing a black guy, they would have interviewed her immediately, so any such phone call would have happened on the 12th of November, or the 11th at the earliest, which was AFTER the police had announced a 4th African suspect on the 10th. Again, simple logic excludes her testimony as leading to either Lumumba or Guede!

What else could it have been that had focused the police in on TWO (2) African suspects in the 8 days after the murder?

Could it just be, since we now know that the Italian CSI had found African hairs in Meredith's bedroom, that one of the CSI had immediately recognized those African hairs, to be African hairs? If so, it wouldn't take very long to confirm that they were indeed African hairs using a common microscope.

It seems not only possible that the CSI had found African hairs and immediately recognized their importance to this rape/murder case, but based upon the quick focus towards African suspects, it's very likely that is exactly what happened!

If you have a more plausible theory, then present your case?

If you're not interested in making logical deductions based upon known facts, then don't fault me for my logical deductions, unless you see an error in my logic, of course.

I'm convinced that Rudy killed Meredith. Probably alone. I know there is not enough evidence to fill in the many details we have speculated about over the years and I'm convinced there never will be.

The only things that interest me about this case is NEW info. Which there is very little of. People can speculate all they want but I'm done with guessing. The best we can say about any of this is that some things most likely happend. We certainly can't prove with any real certainty any of our speculation.

I'm interested in the latest case against Amanda and the motivstion. I'm somewhat vicariously interested in what happens next for Amanda because I'm rooting for her.

I just read her latest contribution the West Seattle Herald. About Star Wars of all things.

The motivation can't come fast enough, not that I'm expecting any thing really new. It will just be good to read some legal sanity from Italy.

I'm hoping they say good things about Hellmann's earlier exoneration of Amanda & Raffaele.

 

[Grinder]

Please, that's lame, making something up again under the "AIUI" banner trying to send me off to another wild goose chase, are you? It would be nice for once if you'd be able to back up your claims without having to be asked for a source... But I think acbytesla is right:

I think she meant that since Quintavalle wasn't at the cash register the morning of 2nd that it amounts to him being separated from it which is what would happen if it was taken in for evidence.

Seriously if his was taken then they would have had to take many others as at that time he denied seeing or knowing anything just like all the other stores. I doubt that the price sticker identified the store but who knows. Isn't there a picture of the bleach at Raf's? Can one see the tag?

 

[Vixen]

So he Rudy wasn't convicted only someone named Rudi?

Thousands of immigrants to the USA had their names changed at Ellis island. People change their names through the courts as well. Many people have legal names that don't match their birth certificate.

In the UK you'd have to go through deed poll to change a christian name. Surnames, ditto, or a marriage certificate.

 

[Vixen]

No, you are forgetting. Richard Owen wrote about timed receipts for bleach. Therefore, there were timed receipts for bleach - according to you.


Thanks! I will take this as a B+. I feel encouraged to ditch my job, sell my home and put everything into my new career as a French playwrite.

I think it was settled the cop Volturn (_sp?) went to great pains to locate the sale, to no avail. Obviously, the sale was made, unless shoplifted.

 

[anglolawyer]

In the UK you'd have to go through deed poll to change a christian name. Surnames, ditto, or a marriage certificate.

At common law, you can change your surname name any way you please but the most commonly used method is by statutory declaration. I read once that, again at common law, it is not possible to change your Christian name. That law, if it ever existed, must be a dead letter now.

 

[Kauffer]

I am sure you have already been told they do not have plea bargaining in Italy.

Yes they do. It's called "Patteggiamento".

 

[Kauffer]

I think it was settled the cop Volturn (_sp?) went to great pains to locate the sale, to no avail. Obviously, the sale was made, unless shoplifted.

Why "obviously"?

 

[anglolawyer]

I think it was settled the cop Volturn (_sp?) went to great pains to locate the sale, to no avail. Obviously, the sale was made, unless shoplifted.

Why would they go to great pains to locate a sale when they had timed, dated receipts?

That a sale of bleach was made to somebody or other (let's assume there is evidence for that although I would like to see it) is not the same thing at all as a sale to Knox or Sollecito. The bleach receipts were said to have been found in Sollecito's apartment. That is the evidence in which you have claimed to believe along with the idea that it was not used because, well, they don't use everything, do they.

 

[Vixen]

What's wrong with being sex obsessed? I love getting laid. You should try it sometime. I know many men and women who actually enjoy it and don't view it as something dirty and unnatural.

BTW, Dr Tesla is not me. There is a guilter that goes by that moniker, but that's not me.

Personally, IMV people who go round telling everyone "sex is natural" are kinda cheesy.

 

[Vixen]

The fast track trial amounts to the same thing as a plea bargain but be careful to note that is not saying it is equivalent to a plea bargain.

No, it is not. Plea bargaining is illegal in Italy, whilst perfectly legal in the States.

 

[Vixen]

At common law, you can change your surname name any way you please but the most commonly used method is by statutory declaration. I read once that, again at common law, it is not possible to change your Christian name. That law, if it ever existed, must be a dead letter now.

Legally, you can use any name you like, but for legal documents, such as passports or driving licence, you need to get your deed poll (statutory declaration).

You can change your name on the birth certificate if your parents produce a baptism certificate showing your new name within 15(_???) days of having registered your birth.

 

[Vixen]

Why "obviously"?

Two brand spanking new bottles of ACE.

Nooooooooooooo! Not again.

 

[Vixen]

Yes they do. It's called "Patteggiamento".

Really? Are you sure that translates as "plea bargaining"?

 

[Grinder]

Really? Are you sure that translates as "plea bargaining"?

It does according to https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicazione_della_pena_su_richiesta_delle_parti

 

[Ken Dine]

I think she meant that since Quintavalle wasn't at the cash register the morning of 2nd that it amounts to him being separated from it which is what would happen if it was taken in for evidence.

Seriously if his was taken then they would have had to take many others as at that time he denied seeing or knowing anything just like all the other stores. I doubt that the price sticker identified the store but who knows. Isn't there a picture of the bleach at Raf's? Can one see the tag?

Yes, there were two jugs, one full, and one half empty. They still had their price tags on them showing they were purchased from Quintavalle's store, but the price tags were lower than Quintavalle was currently then charging for bleach.

The price listed on the bottles is what Quintavalle was charging for bleach the previous summer, which makes sense since one of Quintavalle's two clerks moonlighted cleaning Raffaele's apartment, and she testified the bleach was bought the previous summer.

Shortly before the murders that 1st clerk had to stop cleaning Raffaele's apartment since she was pregnant and had to slow down, so Quintavalle's other clerk took over cleaning duties at Raffaele's apartment, so both of Quintavalle's clerks knew Raffaele fairly well.

When he came around after the murder asking questions, both female clerks told Inspector Volturno that neither Amanda or Raffaele had been to the store following the murder, as did Quintavalle.

Later, Quintavalle changed his tune, and when questioned why he had told Inspector Volturno that he hadn't seen Amanda, Quintavalle lied and claimed Inspector Volturno had never asked about Amanda, only Raffaele.

Inspector Volturno testified that Quintavalle lied since he had pictures of both Amanda & Raffaele which he had showed to both clerks and to Quintavalle that day. That's why Hellmann didn't believe Quintavalle.

I would say that Inspector Volturno was one of the good cops since he essentially exposed the prosecution's witness to be a liar. I'll bet Mignini wasn't happy about that.

 

[Numbers]

I am sure you have already been told they do not have plea bargaining in Italy.

Yes they do. It's called "Patteggiamento".

Really? Are you sure that translates as "plea bargaining"?

Patteggiamento:
"With regard to the Application of punishment upon request of the parties (the so-called patteggiamento), it is an original form of negotiated justice. During preliminary investigations (CPP Article 447) or at the preliminary hearing (Article 446) or at the first hearing before a single judge (Articles 555-556), the Public Prosecutor and the accused person may request the judge to apply a sentence they have agreed on....The negotiated judgment issued upon request of the parties shall be considered equivalent to a conviction. No appellate remedy may be invoked against the negotiated judgment, but an appeal in Cassation is always admissible."

Source: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation. Mitja Gialuz, Luca Luparia, and Federika Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia, (c) 2014, p 44-45

Note that the patteggiamento is different from the fast-track trial procedure (called guidizio abbreviato), although in both cases the judge must (at least in theory) verify that the person is not actually innocent and that the criminal act has been identified by the correct legally-defined criminal charge.

The patteggiamento is indeed the closest Italian equivalent of the US plea bargain; it is indeed a negotiated conviction.

As usual, Vixen's posts on this matter are a combination of ignorance and misstatements.

 

[Vixen]

Patteggiamento:
"With regard to the Application of punishment upon request of the parties (the so-called patteggiamento), it is an original form of negotiated justice. During preliminary investigations (CPP Article 447) or at the preliminary hearing (Article 446) or at the first hearing before a single judge (Articles 555-556), the Public Prosecutor and the accused person may request the judge to apply a sentence they have agreed on....The negotiated judgment issued upon request of the parties shall be considered equivalent to a conviction. No appellate remedy may be invoked against the negotiated judgment, but an appeal in Cassation is always admissible."

Source: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation. Mitja Gialuz, Luca Luparia, and Federika Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia, (c) 2014, p 44-45

Note that the patteggiamento is different from the fast-track trial procedure (called guidizio abbreviato), although in both cases the judge must (at least in theory) verify that the person is not actually innocent and that the criminal act has been identified by the correct legally-defined criminal charge.

The patteggiamento is indeed the closest Italian equivalent of the US plea bargain; it is indeed a negotiated conviction.

As usual, Vixen's posts on this matter are a combination of ignorance and misstatements.

Plea bargaining is when a perp agrees to testify against fellow perps with the promise of a lesser sentence.

What you are talking about is a system brought in to a country (and Spain is similar) where everybody automatically pleads, "not guilty", as an incentive for the guilty to just get on with it with the carrot of a discounted sentence.

As is to be expected, like Ken Dine, you choose to tell only half the story.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, there were two jugs, one full, and one half empty. They still had their price tags on them showing they were purchased from Quintavalle's store, but the price tags were lower than Quintavalle was currently then charging for bleach.

The price listed on the bottles is what Quintavalle was charging for bleach the previous summer, which makes sense since one of Quintavalle's two clerks moonlighted cleaning Raffaele's apartment, and she testified the bleach was bought the previous summer.

Shortly before the murders that 1st clerk had to stop cleaning Raffaele's apartment since she was pregnant and had to slow down, so Quintavalle's other clerk took over cleaning duties at Raffaele's apartment, so both of Quintavalle's clerks knew Raffaele fairly well.

When he came around after the murder asking questions, both female clerks told Inspector Volturno that neither Amanda or Raffaele had been to the store following the murder, as did Quintavalle.

Later, Quintavalle changed his tune, and when questioned why he had told Inspector Volturno that he hadn't seen Amanda, Quintavalle lied and claimed Inspector Volturno had never asked about Amanda, only Raffaele.

Inspector Volturno testified that Quintavalle lied since he had pictures of both Amanda & Raffaele which he had showed to both clerks and to Quintavalle that day. That's why Hellmann didn't believe Quintavalle.

I would say that Inspector Volturno was one of the good cops since he essentially exposed the prosecution's witness to be a liar. I'll bet Mignini wasn't happy about that.

I note you've omitted the "inconvenient" parts of the cleaners' testimony. Also, very devious saying "previous summer" when you mean the same summer that year.

 

[acbytesla]

Personally, IMV people who go round telling everyone "sex is natural" are kinda cheesy.

What it isn't is unnatural. BTW, my experience with normal British girls is that they like to shag as much as American girls. We have frigid prudes in the US that think sex is dirty too. So your not alone. My experience is that the only girls who view sex as dirty either can't attract a man or have trouble achieving orgasm.