Continuation Part 10: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

I think the argument is that there is really no better reason for the police to narrow in on Amanda and Raff, not that Filomena is guilty.

Rudi certainly wasn't known on Nov. the 2nd or 3rd or 4th as the murderer.

It is just silly to say that the alibi's were the same and BW has been given the reasons before. She wasn't alone with her boyfriend five minutes away by foot but rather was with another couple celebrating a birthday and was more like twenty minutes away by car IIRC.

I can't find it now but gave it to Bill before giving the timeline which involved deciding not to stop at an additional location because it was so late.

 

[Grinder]

Filomena lawyered up. Amanda didn't. So when no obvious candidate surfaced for #3, then #2 became more important.

By the time Filomena's alibi became "iron clad", AK had been in jail for a long time.

Bill you know that her alibi was solid from the beginning. What does lawyered up mean in this context? Did she have lawyers with her at all interviews?

Other than Meredith the key of the apartment was available to Laura Mezzetti, who was however away from Perugia that day, at Montefiascone at her parents’; Filomena Romanelli, who was however with her fiancé at the house of her girlfriend Paola Grande and the latter’s boyfriend, Luca Altieri, who was celebrating his birthday (see also the declarations of Dr Chiacchiera on page 150 hearing of 27.2.2009 and declarations of Napoleoni, hearing 27,2.2009 page 232) and Amanda Knox had it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill you know that her alibi was solid from the beginning. What does lawyered up mean in this context? Did she have lawyers with her at all interviews?

Other than Meredith the key of the apartment was available to Laura Mezzetti, who was however away from Perugia that day, at Montefiascone at her parents’; Filomena Romanelli, who was however with her fiancé at the house of her girlfriend Paola Grande and the latter’s boyfriend, Luca Altieri, who was celebrating his birthday (see also the declarations of Dr Chiacchiera on page 150 hearing of 27.2.2009 and declarations of Napoleoni, hearing 27,2.2009 page 232) and Amanda Knox had it.

I do?

Lawyered up means that the cops know that if they talk with her, they SHOULD be talking to her with her lawyer there. Knox was volunteering to help.

I am not quite sure what the point is here.

 

[Dan O.]

Which came first, Amanda's statement of abuse or the statement that they did not record it?

Amanda said this in a hand written statement she gave to the police on the evening of November 6:

Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly. I understand that the police are under a lot of stress, so I understand the treatment I received.​

This is at least 2 days before the hearing before Matteini where she will first meet her attorney. In fact we know from the Order for Arrest that it was Mignini who ordered that console be denied for those first days after the arrest.

At the time Amanda made that written statement she had no way to know that the interrogation in the police interrogation room, which would be equipped for video and audio recording, was not recorded.

 

[Grinder]

I do?

Lawyered up means that the cops know that if they talk with her, they SHOULD be talking to her with her lawyer there. Knox was volunteering to help.

I am not quite sure what the point is here.

So you're suggesting that she lawyered up but the ILE didn't care. Can you provide anything that would back this up? IIRC she contacted her firm about the lease situation and had a lawyer with when she brought her computer in to the station.

Did she have a lawyer with her doing her interviews or not?

 

[anglolawyer]

Grinder believes they were grilling Amanda on her alibi those first three days. Not only would that be stupid and likely make their suspect clam up (or lawyer up), it would probably put the police in violation of Italian law in regards to how they must treat suspects.

We get an excellent summary of where the police questioning went those first days in Amanda's email home written in the early hours of November 4. Her executive summary of her alibi presented at that time is: "After a little while of playing guitar me and Raffale went to his house to watch movies and after to eat dinner and generally spend the evening and night indoors. We didn't go out."

That's it. No questions about minute by minute what was Amanda doing. The questions were focused on what was going on at the cottage and what was Meredith doing.

Correct!

 

[Dan O.]

The discussion has wandered back onto the various recordings. I have had a question for some time, and at one point made a beginning effort to locate the information without luck.

My question: what real info do we have on the alleged 30,000+ phone calls that were intercepted? And supposedly a small number were lost. Were any of these transcribed? Available for viewing?

Thanks if someone can direct me to that info.

In a written declaration of a Perugia police officer, A minor acquaintance of Amanda had his phone conversations taped because Amanda's phone records showed that he had contacted her several days prior to Meredith's murder. As a result of these phone taps it was discovered that the person was involved in illegal drug trades resulting in a separate investigation and trial.

In testimony durring the Massei trial it was stated that Patric Lumumba's phone and bar were bugged.

You don't have to extrapolate very far, starting with the roommates, Meredith's english friends and the neighbors downstairs, expanding to all of their acquaintances and multiplied by the number of phone calls the average person makes each day then times the numbers of days the intercepts were taking place to reach 30,000+ intercepted calls.

 

[Bill Williams]

So you're suggesting that she lawyered up but the ILE didn't care. Can you provide anything that would back this up? IIRC she contacted her firm about the lease situation and had a lawyer with when she brought her computer in to the station.

Did she have a lawyer with her doing her interviews or not?

Grinder - drop it. This is getting so far from the original point as to be ridiculous. If you want me to say, "You win," I will.

 

[JREF2010]

No, that doesn't have it.

So... the only source for this is TJMK?

My memory is really playing tricks on me, because I could swear I remember a clip in which Mignini squirmed on the hot seat while proffering this lame explanation.

there was a full interview and video played on CNN, and I recall posting the link years ago on Franks original blog about it. he was squirming... i even wondered at the time, why did Migninni offer to make this interview? he seemed almost narcisstic in going on tv a lot, maybe he enjoys the media chaos and attention, maybe hes working on his own multimillion dollar retirement book deal? Monster of Florence and Monster of Perugia, Migninni can start his own series of books.

12’51’’ CNN: Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?
13’00’’ Mignini: Look, that’s, I was at the police station, and all the…let’s say…when I made investigations in my own office, I taped them. I taped them, we have an apparatus for that, and I transcribed them. For example, there’s the interrogation of the English girls, Meredith’s friends, it was all taped. The interrogations of Amanda in prison were taped, and then transcribed, and we have the transcripts of… But in a police station, at the very moment of the investigation it isn’t done, not with respect to Amanda or anyone else. Also because, I can tell you, today, even then, but today in particular, we have budget problems, budget problems that are not insignificant, which do not allow us to transcribe. Video is very important…I completely agree with you that videotaping is extremely important, we should be able to have a video recording of every statement [verbale di assunzione di informazioni] made Because what is said is very important, but it’s maybe even more important how it is said, the non-verbal language. Because from the non-verbal language you can [missing words].
15’14’’ Mignini: It isn’t only Amanda, it’s always like that. But I wanted to say that I agree with him that it’s fundamental, only there’s a problem, especially when the witnesses are so numerous, and in fact just recording, I mean recording the sound, isn’t enough according to me.
15’38’’ CNN: It doesn’t cost much, he says.
15’40’’ Mignini: Well we have significant budget problems, that’s what it is.

 

[carbonjam72]

Grinder - drop it. This is getting so far from the original point as to be ridiculous. If you want me to say, "You win," I will.

Why Bill, you're right on this one. Lawyering up means the police can't employ their usual tactics of softening up and coercing confessions, as seems to be SOP with the Italian police. Which is why NONE of the Italians went to the police station by themselves, they all went with adults/family/lawyers, so the police would have to behave themselves. It's common sense that lawyering up would give the polce pause, it means they can't forget to record interviews and recreate the circumstances and content of "confessions".

 

[carbonjam72]

.
I think what most here would agree on, is that it would be just as much of a stretch to suspect Filomena and her boyfriend of inviting Rudy over to the cottage and then helping him to sexually assault and murder Meredith, as it is to imagine Amanda and her boyfriend doing it.

Cody
.

The difference is they could interrogate Amanda in Raf into coerced statements, which they couldn't do with anyone else, because everyone else got "witnesses" (lawyers/family/professional adults) to go into the police station with, so the police knew they were dealing with a group of people, not just the weaker, slower gazelles they could pick off from the pack.

There's no reason to suspect anyone other than the actual burglar and murderer. But once police had obtained a confession, how could they let it go without admitting they had extracted a false statement under duress?

There was no way for Amanda to know how corrupt the Italian police were on a normal basis, but Raf should have known better, as his sister tried to warn him. The other girls knew, but Raf was floating in new love. Tragic and understandable, but Raf could have and should have done more to protect them both. imo.

 

[CoulsdonUK]

Why Bill, you're right on this one. Lawyering up means the police can't employ their usual tactics of softening up and coercing confessions, as seems to be SOP with the Italian police. Which is why NONE of the Italians went to the police station by themselves, they all went with adults/family/lawyers, so the police would have to behave themselves. It's common sense that lawyering up would give the polce pause, it means they can't forget to record interviews and recreate the circumstances and content of "confessions".

It is curious that the only Italian who didn’t get a lawyer was Raffaele, despite his sister being a Caribinieri officer at the time.

 

[JREF2010]

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/crime/2011/05/06/griffin.amanda.knox.prosecutor.cnn.html

heres the video part.

heres a old news piece of the same time
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2011/05/06/cnn-amanda-knox-prosecutor-rambling-confused/

 

[Grinder]

Correct!

so sad. you think because she didn't talk about smoking pot and having or not having sex in the email that means she wasn't asked in 5, 10 or 20 hours of being with the police what she did the night before...really?

 

[anglolawyer]

so sad. you think because she didn't talk about smoking pot and having or not having sex in the email that means she wasn't asked in 5, 10 or 20 hours of being with the police what she did the night before...really?

Yes.

 

[Grinder]

It is curious that the only Italian who didn’t get a lawyer was Raffaele, despite his sister being a Caribinieri officer at the time.

As I said above I don't believe that there is any evidence that all the Italians lawyered up in the sense they wouldn't meet with the police without a lawyer present.

If the interview transcripts that Mignini claims exist we could find out.

I recall that F did have a lawyer with her when ordered to bring her computer to the station that she had been allowed to remove from her room.

This was brought up to distract from the fact that F had an alibi that was verified by three other people not just her boyfriend.

 

[lonepinealex]

As I said above I don't believe that there is any evidence that all the Italians lawyered up in the sense they wouldn't meet with the police without a lawyer present.

If the interview transcripts that Mignini claims exist we could find out.

I recall that F did have a lawyer with her when ordered to bring her computer to the station that she had been allowed to remove from her room.

This was brought up to distract from the fact that F had an alibi that was verified by three other people not just her boyfriend.

Three other people until what time?

 

[Grinder]

Three other people until what time?

As I've said above, I can't find the cite I gave BW before but it was a birthday party on a non work night and IIRC F and her BF decided not to stop somewhere else on the way to his house because it was too late.

 

[lonepinealex]

As I've said above, I can't find the cite I gave BW before but it was a birthday party on a non work night and IIRC F and her BF decided not to stop somewhere else on the way to his house because it was too late.

I don't see that this is so fundamentally different from Amanda's alibi. Mignini managed to fit the circumstances of the murder around A & R's alibis, even though it forced him to make the time of death and their journeys to and from the cottage totally implausible.

Had he gone after Filomena I'm sure he could have found a willing tramp and a woman to hear an impossible scream at whatever time suited him.

 

[Grinder]

I don't see that this is so fundamentally different from Amanda's alibi. Mignini managed to fit the circumstances of the murder around A & R's alibis, even though it forced him to make the time of death and their journeys to and from the cottage totally implausible.

Had he gone after Filomena I'm sure he could have found a willing tramp and a woman to hear an impossible scream at whatever time suited him.

A & R only had themselves as alibis from about 8:45 until noon the next day.

F had two others and I think they were in public at some time and they were much farther away necessitating driving not a 5 minute walk but if wish to see the two sets of alibis as the same, fine.

Btw, the original TOD was earlier and only moved to fit the super witnesses.

ETA - Other than Meredith the key of the apartment was available to Laura Mezzetti, who was however away from Perugia that day, at Montefiascone at her parents’; Filomena Romanelli, who was however with her fiancé at the house of her girlfriend Paola Grande and the latter’s boyfriend, Luca Altieri, who was celebrating his birthday (see also the declarations of Dr Chiacchiera on page 150 hearing of 27.2.2009 and declarations of Napoleoni, hearing 27,2.2009 page 232) and Amanda Knox had it.

Are either of the declarations available?