Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[apathoid]

Unless I'm mistaken, the passenger DNA is not part of Flight 77. I don't think I can break it down any further than that without being crass.

Actually, I see the point you are making here. But unless you can come up with an alternative explanation as to how else it got there....this notion of the passenger DNA being a completely separate entity from flight 77 is pretty silly. Do you have an explanation?

The evidence for Flight 77's presence has to be strong. For example, I don't think the CNN security footage did much to quell doubt. Nor did I find the NatGeo special replaying photos of the same piece over and over again very convincing.

What evidence are you looking for, specifically?

 

[Matthew Cline]

Either it's simply what they want to believe,

Above and beyond that, I think that (for some of them) it's "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks". Each accusation they make about how the official "story" is false is another chance to convince people, and if a person is convinced that one part of the "official story" is a lie then they'll be a lot more likely to believe that other parts of it are lies.

their own preconceived notions of what plane crashes look like.

I think that many Truthers consider their common sense to be infallible, or at least a lot better than it actually is. I remember one Truther saying that his common sense told him that the world is round, so if your common sense tells you that it's flat then your common sense is broken.

 

[LashL]

To play Devil's Advocate: for the DNA to, in and of itself, prove that Flight 77 crashed at the Pentagon, there'd have to be sufficient evidence that the DNA evidence wasn't faked or tampered with. However, the evidence for that is insufficient, so the DNA evidence can't stand on its own.

First, you are way off base as you have misrepresented my post from the outset. Do try to read for comprehension and try to avoid making specious (and uninformed) arguments about a point that was not made in the first place.

Second, the DNA evidence does, indeed, stand on its own in the absence of any evidence that it was "faked" or "tampered with". You seem to be confused.

Third, it appears that you know little, if anything, about how the collection of human remains at the Pentagon actually occurred, and little, if anything, about how evidence works in the real world.

Fourth, it appears that you know little, if anything, about how the burden of proof works. There were myriad professionals involved in the collection of human remains at the Pentagon, and they carefully documented their findings, followed protocols to ensure a very strict chain of custody between the various people, agencies, and medical examiners/coroners/forensic experts involved, the remains were meticulously tested and compared to samples from family members, and every step of the various processes and procedures were documented. While many of the details have not been publicly disseminated on a wide scale, they are sufficiently available via the FOIA process to anyone who wishes to avail oneself of the process to obtain the information (although there are redactions of certain personal information pertaining to the victims, for obvious reasons).

So, your premise is faulty from the outset. If conspiracy fantasists want to claim that the evidence was faked or tampered with, it is up to them to provide evidence of that - not the other way around.

I'm not the devil you're advocating, but this is spot freakin' on.

Not surprisingly, you continue to fail to respond to legitimate posts and instead simply post nonsense when you think that you've found an ally who buys into the same conspiracy fantasies that you do.

How about actually addressing the posts directed to you, for a change?

 

[bill smith]

John Farmer's "The Ground Truth" is now available. So the truthers who were getting all excited about it previously will be handwaving away everything he has to say any moment now.

It seems clear from this John Farmer interview that we Truthers have been right all along. The government WAS lying about 9/11 exactly as we said. So that means that you debunkers have been WRONG all along.

Some keywords;-

Misconceptions...chaos...20-20 hindsight...unable to respond properly...posterior covering...incompetent...data density...tragedy...burocracy...lessons learned...government resisted investigation..everyone failed...lied....misled...no time...complacency...must never happen again...the government made a decision not to tell the Truth about 9/11...government too stupid to do this....look to the future , not to the past.. (and more of the same).lol

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/episodes/2009/09/11/segments/140472 audio

Choiceiabolical or incompetent ?

Answer: Diabolical.

 

[BigAl]

Above and beyond that, I think that (for some of them) it's "throw everything at the wall and see what sticks". Each accusation they make about how the official "story" is false is another chance to convince people, and if a person is convinced that one part of the "official story" is a lie then they'll be a lot more likely to believe that other parts of it are lies.



I think that many Truthers consider their common sense to be infallible, or at least a lot better than it actually is. I remember one Truther saying that his common sense told him that the world is round, so if your common sense tells you that it's flat then your common sense is broken.

The idiots can make stuff up much faster than fact-based people can debunk it. There is a "new" "50 questions" list floating around on the Internets. If all those "questions" got answered, another one would pop up instantly.

Common sense fails when the "sense" is about something they have never seen and it is much, much larger than they can imagine. It fails even worse since forces and masses in a building scales as the cube of the height, roughly. If they have a 10 foot high model of WTC in mind, the real WTC had beams of strength and quantity a million times as massive (100x as tall, that's 100 cubed = 1,000,000). Nobody, not even real engineers can keep that scale range in the head.)

 

[Pardalis]

IANAL, but my understanding is that if the only piece of evidence is (for example) DNA then you'd need to prove that that single piece of evidence wasn't tampered with.

Nonsense.

First of all how does one test if a piece of evidence was tampered with, and second of all, if we do get to test the evidence, how are we supposed to trust the test, it too could have been tampered with.

You're going to to be stuck with a reductio ad absurdum problem on your hands pretty quickly. As Lashl said, if the evidence was gathered properly by professionals, then there is no reason to doubt its validity, especially when it was shown as evidence at the Moussaoui trial in the US Freaking Supreme Court.

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution.html

"We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," Ensign said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the investigation team. Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME's Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology.

A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists, and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, with headquarters at Walter Reed, played a major role in Operation Noble Eagle investigations, officials said.

[...]
"We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses, and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."

[...]

"We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," Ensign said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the investigation team. Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME's Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology

I'm not the devil you're advocating, but this is spot freakin' on.

You didn't answer my question.

What kind of evidence would satisfy you?

 

[Dave Rogers]

But in this particular case, the damage the Pentagon suffered is not the damage you'd expect Flight 77 to cause. The claim that Flight 77 could cause the type of damage the Pentagon experienced is an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

As you pointed out in your second paragraph, this is where your devil's advocate starts to lose his case. The problem with it is that there has to be a reasonable standard of expectation met. The results of the impact between an airliner travelling at 400+mph and a reinforced concrete wall are so far outside the experience of the uninformed commentator that the expectations of that commentator are quite meaningless. And yet, the continual practice of the conspiracy theorist is to take uninformed speculation and use it as the basis on which to classify claims as extraordinary. A more rational approach would be to use the expectations of those who have relevant experience, or have performed relevant experiments or modelling, to determine what claims are genuinely extraordinary. In this specific case, therefore, the best starting point is Purdue University's modelling. Had the actual impact damage differed radically from their predictions, then we would indeed have an extraordinary claim. However, the claim that the damage caused by Flight 77's impact matches quite well with that modelled by Purdue's simulation can hardly be called an extraordinary claim. The genuinely extraordinary claim, in fact, is that an uninformed commentator, with no experience of the effects of high speed air crashes, can make a reliable prediction of the effects of such a crash.

Dave

 

[MikeW]

New bin Laden tape, maybe:

"To the American people, this is my message to you: a reminder of the reasons behind 9/11 and the wars and the repercussions that followed and the way to resolve it," the message said.

"From the beginning, we have stated many times ... that the cause of our disagreement with you is your support of your allies, the Israelis, who are occupying our land in Palestine. Your stance along with some other grievances are what led us to carry out the events of 9/11."

The video plays the audio over a undated photograph of bin Laden. The video also shows a banner with the American flag as the backdrop and an image of the New York City skyline with the twin towers of the World Trade Center -- destroyed in the 9/11 attack -- still standing, said terrorism analyst Laura Mansfield.

CNN could not independently authenticate bin Laden as the speaker in the 11-minute video posted on Sunday by As-Sahab Media -- al Qaeda's production company.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/09/14/binladen.message/index.html

 

[bill smith]

HOAX OBAMA STATEMENT TO THE NATION

My fellow Americans.
I have become increasingly aware of a very painful and divisive issue that has arisen on the internet over the last few years. that is the claim by conspiracy theorists known as ' The 9/11 Movement for Truth ' That the previous administration was in some way complicit in the attacks of 9/11. Unfortunately this has spoken to that part of many people that is responsive to such claims.

I am advised by my experts in the fields of psychology and behavioural science that this is not an uncommon accurrance after an enormous and traumatic event like 9/11. People are looking for someone to blame and can be wrongly influenced by those sometimes very persuasive operators.

Rather than allow this nonsense to continue to poison the public morale I have decided to initiate talks in the form of a series of meetings between the leaders of the ' 9/11 Movement for Truth ' and our own experts from the National Institute for Sience and Technology (NIST) , I will expect the media to be responsible and not turn this into some kind of feeding frenzy.

Thank you and God bless America.

 

[MysteryMammal]

HOAX OBAMA STATEMENT TO THE NATION

My fellow Americans.
I have become increasingly aware of a very painful and divisive issue that has arisen on the internet over the last few years. that is the claim by conspiracy theorists known as ' The 9/11 Movement for Truth ' That the previous administration was in some way complicit in the attacks of 9/11. Unfortunately this has spoken to that part of many people that is responsive to such claims.

I am advised by my experts in the fields of psychology and behavioural science that this is not an uncommon accurrance after an enormous and traumatic event like 9/11. People are looking for someone to blame and can be wrongly influenced by those sometimes very persuasive operators.

Rather than allow this nonsense to continue to poison the public morale I have decided to initiate talks in the form of a series of meetings between the leaders of the ' 9/11 Movement for Truth ' and our own experts from the National Institute for Sience and Technology (NIST) , I will expect the media to be responsible and not turn this into some kind of feeding frenzy.

Thank you and God bless America.

Because two wars, a health care crisis, a possible 'splosion of swine flu, an economy in the tank, and rising unemployment are just not as important as wing-nuts on the internet.

Bill, don't stop believing. Hold on to that feeling.

 

[Whiplash]

HOAX OBAMA STATEMENT TO THE NATION

My fellow Americans.
I have become increasingly aware of a very painful and divisive issue that has arisen on the internet over the last few years. that is the claim by conspiracy theorists known as ' The 9/11 Movement for Truth ' That the previous administration was in some way complicit in the attacks of 9/11. Unfortunately this has spoken to that part of many people that is responsive to such claims.

I am advised by my experts in the fields of psychology and behavioural science that this is not an uncommon accurrance after an enormous and traumatic event like 9/11. People are looking for someone to blame and can be wrongly influenced by those sometimes very persuasive operators.

Rather than allow this nonsense to continue to poison the public morale I have decided to initiate talks in the form of a series of meetings between the leaders of the ' 9/11 Movement for Truth ' and our own experts from the National Institute for Sience and Technology (NIST) , I will expect the media to be responsible and not turn this into some kind of feeding frenzy.

Thank you and God bless America.

Holy cow, keep dreaming kiddo!! You can call it a hoax, or pipe dream, or whatever you want. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Childlike Empress]

New bin Laden tape, maybe:

Yeah, as always presented by IntelCenter. Read it in DER SPIEGEL today and was pleased to see that they made it very clear (three times) that this is "according to IntelCenter". If even DER SPIEGEL is suspicious, in short time nobody will believe these fairy tales any longer.

 

[BigAl]

Yeah, as always presented by IntelCenter. Read it in DER SPIEGEL today and was pleased to see that they made it very clear (three times) that this is "according to IntelCenter". If even DER SPIEGEL is suspicious, in short time nobody will believe these fairy tales any longer.

Hey, given that few of us speak Arabic, the translation has to come from somewhere. They should get the credit.

I dunno how our intelligence people validate these messages. I take them as provisionally true because I know there were several face-to-face interviews with ObL prior to 9/2001 and today's message is consistent with what we know he said. I've also read the complete collection of Osama's speeches (translated) published in 2004.

The contact Osama had with the media is listed via the links, below.

Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda Updated 5/22/09
http://911links.webs.com/binLaden.htm

Table Of Contents
[1] NEWS (Jan 2001) Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
[2] (Jan 2001) ObL Tells Reporter that US attacks are comming.
[3] New York Times reports about al Queda about 89 times prior to 9/11/2001
[4] bin Laden quotes
[5] Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
[6] 1996: bin Laden declares war on America.
[7] ObL attacks on America prior to 2001 listed
[8] Specific attack warnings
[9] Bibliography
[10] 1998 ObL Fatwa calling for attack on the US
[11] Complete 9/11 timeline
[12] Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
[13] US Government "Wanted" poster for biin Ladem

[1] -------------------------------------
NEWS: Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/13/news/mn-53626
Bin Laden Is Said to Be at Center of Loose Web
By John-Thor Dahlburg
January 13, 2000 in print edition A-1
...
U.S. and European authorities say that at the center of
this web, which has been loosely spun from the Philippines
to North America, is Saudi militant Osama bin Laden. A
former Afghan moujahedeen, or holy warrior, the 43-year-old
Bin Laden is on the FBI's 10-most-wanted list for allegedly
sponsoring the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya
and Tanzania that killed 224 people.
In a development indicative of Bin Laden's esteem among his
brothers in arms, after the United States succeeded in obtaining a

U.N. Security Council resolution in October demanding
bin Laden's extradition from Afghanistan, GIA leader Antar Zouabri
issued a letter that condemned the West for persecuting
Islamic militants and that vowed reprisals.

French officials said Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian national arrested
Dec. 14 in Washington state on suspicion of plotting a bombing in
the United States, received his military training at one of Bin Laden's
camps in eastern Afghanistan.

According to the French, the 33-year-old North African belonged to
the "Roubaix gang," a band of armed robbers of Algerian, Bosnian and
French origin who trained in Islamic camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
carried out a series of holdups in Belgium and northern France in
early 1996.

Judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere, one of France's top anti-terrorism
investigators, says a flexible, diffuse and worldwide structure
makes Muslim extremism a growing problem that demands more
intense cross-border cooperation.
In the space of one month, the French judge's investigations took
him as far afield as Canada and Australia.

"The Islamic extremist threat is the Internet of terrorism," Bruguiere said.
[2] ---------------------------------------------------------------
June, 2001: ObL Tells London reporter "attacks are coming.
June 21st, 2001: Bakr Atyani, a reporter for Saudi
Arabian owned broadcaster Middle East Broadcasting
Corp. meets with Osama bin Laden and his aides
in a desert area of Afghanistan. According
to Atyani, "Bin Laden seemed happy with the talks
of his aides who said that the coming weeks will
hold important surprises that will target American
and Israeli interests in the world."

June 22nd, 2001: The US State Department
issued a "Worldwide Caution" regarding the risk of a
terrorist attack by extremist groups. It specifically
mentioned groups with links to Bin Laden and his
Al Queda organization as possible sources for the threat.

June 22nd, 2001: US military forces throughout the
Persian Gulf were put on a heightened state of alert.

June 22nd, 2001: A U.S. Marine Corps
contingent in Jordan cut short its training session and
returned to its ships.
June 22nd, 2001:
U.S. 5th Fleet sent its ships out of port in Bahrain.
June 23rd, 2001: Middle East Broadcasting Corp reported
that followers of Bin Laden were planning an attack
on American and Israeli interests within the next few
weeks. Bakr Atyani's interview with Bin Laden is a
featured report.
June 24th: Taliban officials responde
http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=7743
Described in Bamford [9] Starting on p.16

[3] ---------------------------------------------------------------
"al Queda" was first mentioned in the NY Times on
August 28, 1998 and an estimated 89 times prior to
9/11/2001. A computer at any library can be used
to find all the stories by searching the NYT archives.

[4] -------- bin Laden quotes-----------------------------------
http://iraqwar.org/binladenquotes.htm
[5] ---------------------------------------------------------------
Congressional Research Service
Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
Updated July 9, 2007
Christopher M. Blanchard, Analyst in Middle Eastern Affairs
- http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32759.pdf
...The third and "ultimate objective," according to
Al Adl, (*) "was to prompt [the United States] to come
out of its hole." Al Adl claims that Al Qaeda wanted
to provoke the United States into attacking areas
of the Islamic world associated with the
organization and its affiliates. In doing so, Al Adl
claims, Al Qaeda hoped to make it easier to attack
elements of U.S. power and to build its "credibility
in front of [the Islamic] nation and the
beleaguered people of the world." Al Adl and others have conceded that the attacks
on New York and Washington were not totally
successful, while arguing that the September 11
attack "was enough to prompt the Americans to carry
out the anticipated response" - namely direct military action
within the Islamic world. ...In December 2004, Bin Laden identified the conflict
in Iraq as "a golden and unique opportunity" for
jihadists to engage and defeat the United States,
and he characterized the insurgency in Iraq as the
central battle in a "Third World War, which the
Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic
nation." 24 (*) Al-Qa'ida Leader Sayf al-Adl OSC Report -
GMP2005060637100, May 21, 2005
[6] ----------------------------------------------------
1966: bin Laden declares war on America http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/opf980830a.htm
[7] -----------------------------
ObL Early attacks and aid for attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Militant_activity
[8] ----------------------------------------
Specific attack warnings
http://www.historycommons.org/timel...te_911_timeline&warning_signs:_specific_cases
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart.
Apr 2001, MASSOUD Tells us bin Laden and AQ will attach us "Through Northern Alliance intelligence efforts,
the late commander Massoud gained limited knowledge
regarding the intentions of the Saudi millionaire,
Usama bin Laden and his terrorist organization, al-Qaida,
to perform a terrorist act against the U.S.,
on a scale larger than the 1998 bombing of the U.S.
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania." http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/11/06/massoud.cable/index.html

[9] ------------ Bibliography --------------

Al Qaeda Now - Understanding today's terrorists - Ed. by Greenberg Lots of good ObL quotes
9/11 Comission Report Ch. 6.3
The Commission - The Uncensored History Of The 9/11 Investigation by Shenon, Philip
Messages to the world; The statements of Osama bin Laden translated by Bruce Lawrence
Congressional Report for Congress; Al Qaede: Statements and Evolving Ideology
The Power of Nightmares VIDEO (3 parts)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
The Shadow Factory - The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 by Bamford
PBS Nova Spy Factory
Ghost Wars by Cole
The Looming Tower - Wright
The bin Ladens by Cole
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart.
[10] ------------------------------------------------------------
1998 Fatwa calling for war abainst the US
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a022298fatwaexpands&scale=0#a022298fatwaexpands
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

[11] --------------------------------
Complete 9/11 timeline
http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project
[12] ---------------------------------------
Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
November 6, 2001 the Bush administration handed
such prosecutions over to the DoD and said this
circumvented the 5th ammedment requirement for
indictments
www.usdoj.gov/olc/2001/pub-millcommfinal.pdf
www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1113-07.htm
[13] -----------------------------------------------
http://www.nctc.gov/site/profiles/bin_ladin.html
Usama Bin Ladin is wanted in connection with the
11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center
and the Pentagon and for the 7 August 1998 bombings
of the US Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and
Nairobi, Kenya. The embassy bombings killed 224 civilians and
wounded more than 5,000 others. Usama Bin Ladin and
other terrorists—specifically Ayman al-Zawahiri, Fazul Abdullah
Mohammed, Fahid Mohammed Ally Msalam, Sheikh Ahmed Salim
Swedan, Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah, Saif al-Adel, Anas al-Liby,
Ahmed Mohamed Hamed Ali, and others already in custody—
are members of al-Qa‘ida, the international terrorist network
headed by Bin Ladin.

 

[Justin39640]

In any court of law, if DNA is found of the accused on the scene this usually is enough to convince the judge and jury that the person was indeed there.

Somehow, Red Ibis doesn't agree.

red is going by the OJ case
[red]if the plane dont fit, you must acquit[/red]

 

[Myriad]

HOAX 9/11 TRUTH MOVEMENT LEADERS' STATEMENT TO THE NATION

Our fellow True Patriots,

President Obama has decided to initiate talks in the form of a series of meetings between ourselves and experts from NIST.

Unfortunately we're very busy, and we're all pretty sure we have other important things scheduled for whatever day(s) President Obama wants us to meet with NIST. This is the same reason why, in the past several years, we have been unable to find time to meet with any material test lab personnel, consulting structural engineers, university engineering faculties, firefighters, fire safety engineers, technical journal editors, 9/11 eyewitnesses, forensic scientists, trial lawyers, insurance company investigators, the FBI, the NYPD, the FAA, the SEC, demolition companies, structural modeling software vendors, ground zero construction workers, investigative journalists, airline company executives, cell telecommunication experts, broadcast video technicians, avionics engineers, fighter pilots, building security staff, building inspectors, elevator technicians and inspectors, district attorneys, or any of the other people and groups whose knowledge and experience we routinely dismiss and whom we commonly slander as being "in on it" or too cowardly to speak out.

Please continue contributing to all that very important other stuff we're very busy doing, by using the PayPal links on our respective Web sites.

Thank you and God bless you.

Respectfully,
Myriad

 

[MikeW]

Yeah, as always presented by IntelCenter. Read it in DER SPIEGEL today and was pleased to see that they made it very clear (three times) that this is "according to IntelCenter". If even DER SPIEGEL is suspicious, in short time nobody will believe these fairy tales any longer.

Actually it was according to Laura Mansfield (my source, anyway - I downloaded the video from her site). But hey, I'm sure the ever-expanding conspiracy can include her, too, right?

Let's expand on this. Are you saying you don't believe this is an As-Sahab production?

 

[bill smith]

Jeez...it's really starting to pour out. The dam is bursting. How long can Obama hold out ? He must speak publicly soon or risk being associated with what really happened on 9/11. Just look at these couple of examples or check out 9/11 Blogger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTuSAiu_K64&eurl=http://www.911blogger.com/&feature=player_embedded Russia today

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa761u_11septembre-la-theorie-explosive_news Richard Gage in Paris

 

[Pardalis]

Russia today? Paris? Please... this is a serious forum.

 

[bill smith]

Myriad is it true that if you made the footprint of WTC1 equal to one square foot that the tower would be 21 feet tall ?

Do you not think that a tall thin structure like that would fall over or bend over from asymmetric damage rather than collapse straight down on itself so that even the base of the building was completely destroyed by the falling rubble ? No alarm bells are jangling over there ?

 

[dafydd]

Myriad is it true that if you made the footprint of WTC1 equal to one square foot that the tower would be 21 feet tall ?

Do you not think that a tall thin structure like that would fall over or bend over from asymmetric damage rather than collapse straight down on itself so that even the base of the building was completely destroyed by the falling rubble ? No alarm bells are jangling over there ?

No.