Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[RedIbis]

Actually, yes it does. Flight 77 is not a physical entity; rather, it's a conceptual construct that has certain properties, including a starting and finishing point, a departure and arrival time, and the physical identity of an airliner that was used. One of the properties of Flight 77, which is unique to Flight 77, is the set of identities of the individuals on board. Since these individuals have been identified from DNA remains at the Pentagon does therefore prove, in the strictest philosophical sense, that it was indeed Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon. In other words, whatever it was that crashed into the Pentagon, it may reasonably be defined as Flight 77.

Dave

Interesting. I didn't realize that Flight 77 is not a physical entity. Overlooking for a moment the stundiocity of that statement, the only point, and I mean the only point (which is to say the only point) I'm trying to make is that reports of passenger DNA do not definitively prove the presence of Flight 77, since within the laws of the physical world, there would be other ways such DNA could have been reported without that flight having been at the Pentagon. This is the only point I'm trying to make, and I won't elaborate, as I've done that many times before in other threads.

 

[Justin39640]

Interesting. I didn't realize that Flight 77 is not a physical entity. Overlooking for a moment the stundiocity of that statement, the only point, and I mean the only point (which is to say the only point) I'm trying to make is that reports of passenger DNA do not definitively prove the presence of Flight 77, since within the laws of the physical world, there would be other ways such DNA could have been reported without that flight having been at the Pentagon. This is the only point I'm trying to make, and I won't elaborate, as I've done that many times before in other threads.

i would like to know
how in the span of an hour can you kill someone and get their body parts to a crime scene, spread them around in a convincing pattern and not have anyone notice?

you know the DNA came from things like feet arms fingers toes bones etc etc
not little stains

so please explain how these people were not killed at the pentagon but their body parts were found there
please

 

[Dave Rogers]

Interesting. I didn't realize that Flight 77 is not a physical entity.

If it were a physical entity, how could different people fly the same route on different days?

Overlooking for a moment the stundiocity of that statement, the only point, and I mean the only point (which is to say the only point) I'm trying to make is that reports of passenger DNA do not definitively prove the presence of Flight 77, since within the laws of the physical world, there would be other ways such DNA could have been reported without that flight having been at the Pentagon.

By that token, nothing is ever proven, because it is always possible to construct an alternative scenario that leads to the same outcome. All that you're saying, in effect, is that the word "proof" is inapplicable to any field other than mathematics and formal logic. This is generally addressed, by people who are not trying to construct insoluble semantic quibbles, by using a less formal definition of the word "proof" that equates more closely to "proof beyond reasonable doubt". Your required standard of proof, that any other explanation would violate the laws of physics, can be characterised as unreasonable doubt, and hence is not of any concern to those who are interested in serious discussion of real-word events.

Dave

 

[Whiplash]

A further insight into the truther mind.. The possible, however remote or unlikely, has to be considered as an equally valid hypothesis or explanation, even without any evidence.

I mean, the idea that a remote possibility of some super agents planting DNA is to be considered as being as reasonable or likely an explanation... vs the mountain of tangible, verifiable evidence.. evidence that confirms other evidence... overwhelming evidence.

It's mind boggling.

 

[MikeW]

John Farmer's "The Ground Truth" is now available. So the truthers who were getting all excited about it previously will be handwaving away everything he has to say any moment now.

 

[T.A.M.]

Reports of passenger DNA in the Pentagon does not prove that it was Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon. We've been through this in other threads hundreds of posts at a time.

If you are unable to conjure up ways in which the DNA could be reported without it being 77 at the site, that failure of imagination is not my responsibility.

In short, DNA evidence is compelling and important, but you cannot conclude that it definitively proves the existence of 77 at the Pentagon.

the other alternative is that the passengers reported as on flight 77 were taken elsewhere, killed, and their tissue samples (that the DNA would have been obtained from) place within the crash site.

Adding to our list of people involved in the CT, that would now include enough people to control the passengers, (which might also be their killers), as well as those who could have access to the crash site to plant the DNA...

Getting pretty complex now Red.

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

John Farmer's "The Ground Truth" is now available. So the truthers who were getting all excited about it previously will be handwaving away everything he has to say any moment now.

Yes, and I quote "Publishers Weekly" from teh amazon page for the book -

From Publishers Weekly
Farmer, senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission, updates the commission's report in this thorough and bipartisan analysis. Drawing on newly declassified records and recent investigative reports from the departments of defense and transportation, the author concludes that the failure to detect and prevent the attack lay in the [bureaucratic] nature of modern government. Most significantly, rules proscribing information-sharing within and among agencies meant that no one had complete access to all available intelligence or information—typical bureaucratic inertia that presaged the government's bungled response to Hurricane Katrina. Farmer faults the disconnect between decision-makers and operational employees, concluding that leadership was irrelevant on 9/11 and the official version of events was almost entirely, and inexplicably, untrue. Farmer's conclusion that bureaucratic government does not adapt fast enough to changing missions to be effective is not original, but in his careful exegesis of the events of 9/11, he transcends easy generalizations to expose the fault lines in contemporary governance and point the way to fundamental reform. (Sept.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

Wait...no LIHOP. NO MIHOP!!!!

What what what???

TAM

 

[twinstead]

Interesting. I didn't realize that Flight 77 is not a physical entity. Overlooking for a moment the stundiocity of that statement, the only point, and I mean the only point (which is to say the only point) I'm trying to make is that reports of passenger DNA do not definitively prove the presence of Flight 77, since within the laws of the physical world, there would be other ways such DNA could have been reported without that flight having been at the Pentagon. This is the only point I'm trying to make, and I won't elaborate, as I've done that many times before in other threads.

The fact that DNA of the passengers on the plane was found on site is a serious problem for you. Without ANY evidence it got there any other way than as advertised, most rational people would find it pretty compelling. You appear to want to cavalierly hand wave it away simply because it would be "within the laws of the physical world" that there could be other ways for it to get there.

That's not a skeptical approach. Competing theories should only be considered in light of evidence to support them. Am I wrong?

 

[TruthersLie]

OR TAM you forget, they just LIED about the body parts found and the real passengers were landed somewhere else and quietly executed...

or if you prefer the Dylan and co LIE about Brown and his son...

 

[Pardalis]

since within the laws of the physical world, there would be other ways such DNA could have been reported without that flight having been at the Pentagon.

Like what?

Please explain, and what makes you think this could have been the case. You must have a reason to think it was tampered with.

 

[RedIbis]

Like what?

Please explain, and what makes you think this could have been the case. You must have a reason to think it was tampered with.

Unless I'm mistaken, the passenger DNA is not part of Flight 77. I don't think I can break it down any further than that without being crass.

The evidence for Flight 77's presence has to be strong. For example, I don't think the CNN security footage did much to quell doubt. Nor did I find the NatGeo special replaying photos of the same piece over and over again very convincing.

 

[Pardalis]

Unless I'm mistaken, the passenger DNA is not part of Flight 77. I don't think I can break it down any further than that without being crass.

Oh please do be crass. Let's have it, all the dirty stuff.

And please answer Twinstead's questions above.

 

[Pardalis]

You're going at it backwards. You start with the conclusion that flight 77 didn't crash there, and try to explain everything else away.

We've got something hitting the Pentagon, we've got eyewitnesses saying it was a jet airliner, we've got debris of a airliner all over the site, piece of fuselage and engines, we've got the FDR data and black box, and we've got the DNA of the passengers who were on flight 77.

What possible conclusion could anyone objective and rational reach?

 

[twinstead]

So, Red, if there were conclusive proof (by that I mean proof in your universe, not proof in reality--that already exists) that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon, you would be more apt to believe that the DNA wasn't planted (or whatever way you think it could have got there)? If so, why doesn't the fact that the DNA of the passengers on flight 77 was found in the Pentagon make you more apt to believe flight 77 hit the Pentagon?

I hate to even put it that way, but your spry dancing around this issues requires it.

 

[JimBenArm]

>snip<

The evidence for Flight 77's presence has to be strong. >snip<

The evidence has to be strong? I'm sorry, but the evidence for it NOT to be Flight 77 has to be strong. That's the looney position, so the looney toons have to prove it. I know you don't like that, but dem's da berries, dude. There is DNA, plane pieces, passenger pieces documented at the Pentagon. This is some pretty substantial evidence a plane crashed there. Unless there is some kind of reliable evidence it was something else, such as witnesses who can state they saw someone planting it there, your statement is absurd. Do you have any? The closest thing you have is CIT and their idiotic flyover garbage, and it doesn't make a bit of sense. So, did I miss someone stating they saw DOD personnel planting bodies? Plane parts? No? Then this is easily one of the stupidest things anyone has ever said in the history of the internet. Congratulations! Your award will be arriving in the mail soon.

 

[Pardalis]

In any court of law, if DNA is found of the accused on the scene this usually is enough to convince the judge and jury that the person was indeed there.

Somehow, Red Ibis doesn't agree.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Unless I'm mistaken, the passenger DNA is not part of Flight 77. I don't think I can break it down any further than that without being crass.

The evidence for Flight 77's presence has to be strong. For example, I don't think the CNN security footage did much to quell doubt. Nor did I find the NatGeo special replaying photos of the same piece over and over again very convincing.

We're lucky to even have the pentagon security footage. There's a ton of major airliner crashes which aren't filmed at all. All of those flights have been dentified through a combination of wreckage and passenger remains. The crash in the Pentagon is no different in-so-much as the plane itslef was identified in very much much the same way as just about every other crash;

a combination of wreckage, radar data, blackbox recorders (when viable), passenger manifests. You may take issue with these methods being applied to flight 77, but there's no significant difference. There's more evidence corroborating the ID of the aircraft than some other crashes will ever have, and it certainly has more evidence for it than the French airliner that crashed in July

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You're going at it backwards. You start with the conclusion that flight 77 didn't crash there, and try to explain everything else away.

We've got something hitting the Pentagon, we've got eyewitnesses saying it was a jet airliner, we've got debris of a airliner all over the site, piece of fuselage and engines, we've got the FDR data and black box, and we've got the DNA of the passengers who were on flight 77.

What possible conclusion could anyone objective and rational reach?

Ah, but see... The evidence was carefully constructed by the Evil Cabal™ to lead any rational, forward-thinking person down the desired path to the desired conclusion.

This is why conspiracy theorists in general must be wholly irrational and backwards-thinking in their "investigations"; to avoid such a trap.

Heh...

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Oh god I laughed so hard when I saw this.... thermite IS explosive!!!!!!!!....






























































...if you add enough ice!



Anyone wanna take bets the next thing we hear is that the towers were planted with ice?

 

[LashL]

In short, DNA evidence is compelling and important, but you cannot conclude that it definitively proves the existence of 77 at the Pentagon.

Unless you are positing that the DNA evidence was "faked" somehow and unless you can provide evidence in support of such a claim, the evidence of the existence and location of the DNA of all but one of the passengers of Flight 77 at the Pentagon does indeed definitively prove that it was Flight 77 that crashed into the building.

So step up or step off, RedIbis.