Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

[Ron_Tomkins]

 

[Christopher7]

Can you identify this substance?
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h131/triathlete247/mediaManager.jpg

How about this one?
http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h131/triathlete247/whatisthis.jpg

Aluminum glows the same colors as other metals in a dark room but in daylight molten aluminum is silvery because of its high reflectivity.

You will do mental gymnastics to deny any account of molten steel and you will never even admit that what these witnesses saw could have been molten steel.

No, not mental gymnastics, more like math.

Steel becomes a liquid at 2800 deg. F.
Hydrocarbon fires burn at a MAX of about 2000 deg. F.

Iron becomes liquid at ~2800^oF
Steel becomes liquid at ~2750^oF
Aluminum becomes liquid at ~1220^oF
The average house fire burns at ~1100^oF
http://www.firesciencecolleges.com/blog/2010/10-things-that-wont-burn-in-a-house-fire/

It takes a long time to heat steel beams and columns. The evidence shows that the fires in the Trade Towers did not heat the steel to more than 1100^oF for any length of time.

NCSTAR 1-3 pg 101 [pdf pg 149]
Based on the microstructural analysis of the recovered structural steel, there was no evidence indicating that the pre-collapse fires were severe enough to affect the microstructure of these pieces. Based upon this evidence it is believed that no steel was recovered which experienced temperature excursions above 600^oC [1100^oF] for any length of time.


[FONT=&quot]"O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel," he said."[/FONT]

I find that very hard to believe, especially considering the fires were out in December, and only very small fires still burned.

So do I. Either the reporter got it wrong or O'Toole is lying. I think the reporter got it wrong.

Awesome. Now, can they identify steel by looks alone? I cannot. Especially molten steel.

There is no reason to think it was anything else unless you don't want to accept the consequences. When a steel beam is dripping, it is dripping steel. If a steel beam bursts into flame when it is exposed to the air, it is well above the temperature that building contents can produce.

There were no other metals in concentration in the debris pile. The aluminum cladding was blown up to 600 feet in all directions. The copper and other metals you mentioned were pulverized and mixed with all the other contents of the buildings.

Do you realize how stupid this is? To assume that every piece of steel was sent outwards, away from the pile? Why is there not a ring of aluminum around the WTC pile?

Yes, your interpretation is stupid. I said aluminum cladding, not steel.

Why is this aluminum IN the pile?

http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h131/triathlete247/WTC%20Attack/?action=view&current=10697258-L.jpg#!oZZ22QQcurrentZZhttp%3A%2F%2Fs63.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh131%2Ftriathlete247%2FWTC%2520Attack%2F%3Faction%3Dview%26current%3D3columns.jpg

(right behind the dog, center of picture)

But, you said that all the aluminum was sent 600' in all directions? How is that possible that it eneded up underneath some of the core columns?

All directions, not all the aluminum. 600 feet? What part of "up to" don't you understand?
May I recommend Rosie's Remedial Reader?

Some of the aluminum cladding from the North Tower landed where the South tower once stood.


The melted boots quotes were in response to Chris Mohr's comment:
"the debris pile is cool enough to walk on and dig deep holes into (I have a photo of this) etc.:

 

[triforcharity]

Aluminum glows the same colors as other metals in a dark room but in daylight molten aluminum is silvery because of its high reflectivity.

So, is that a NO, you cannot identify the metals?

Iron becomes liquid at ~2800^oF
Steel becomes liquid at ~2750^oF
Aluminum becomes liquid at ~1220^oF
The average house fire burns at ~1100^oF
http://www.firesciencecolleges.com/blog/2010/10-things-that-wont-burn-in-a-house-fire/

Cardington Fire Tests show otherwise. And yes, HOUSE fires. HOWEVER, this was NOT a house fire. Not in the least.

It takes a long time to heat steel beams and columns. The evidence shows that the fires in the Trade Towers did not heat the steel to more than 1100^oF for any length of time.

NCSTAR 1-3 pg 101 [pdf pg 149]
Based on the microstructural analysis of the recovered structural steel, there was no evidence indicating that the pre-collapse fires were severe enough to affect the microstructure of these pieces. Based upon this evidence it is believed that no steel was recovered which experienced temperature excursions above 600^oC [1100^oF] for any length of time.

Nice quotemine job. I see what you did there. Leaving out the part where it is talking about the EXTERIOR panels ONLY, and not any OTHER steel!!

That's either woefull ignorance, or blatent dishonesty. Take your pick.

[FONT=&quot]"O'Toole remembers in February seeing a crane lift a steel beam vertically from deep within the catacombs of Ground Zero. "It was dripping from the molten steel," he said."[/FONT]So do I. Either the reporter got it wrong or O'Toole is lying. I think the reporter got it wrong.

I think that either way, the information is not reliable. Especially considering the vast majority of fires were out in DECEMBER.

There is no reason to think it was anything else unless you don't want to accept the consequences. When a steel beam is dripping, it is dripping steel. If a steel beam bursts into flame when it is exposed to the air, it is well above the temperature that building contents can produce.

Ok. Keep telling yourself that.

Yes, your interpretation is stupid. I said aluminum cladding, not steel.

Either way, it's stupid, and a lie.

All directions, not all the aluminum. 600 feet? What part of "up to" don't you understand?
May I recommend Rosie's Remedial Reader?

May I reccomend wording your posts more accurately?

May I also reccomend you pull your head out of your rear?

Some of the aluminum cladding from the North Tower landed where the South tower once stood.

But wait, you said there would have been no other metal in concentration in the piles?

The melted boots quotes were in response to Chris Mohr's comment:
"the debris pile is cool enough to walk on and dig deep holes into (I have a photo of this) etc.:

Yes, and you then posted a link to a CT website claiming something that is unsupported. Care to take a stab at that?

 

[triforcharity]

What post and why should I care?

You do realize that the underlined words, are in fact a link, right?
Here is YOUR post.

If you read the testimonies the explosions reported by ff's were heard by ff's inside the buildings that were already being evacuated or they were heard outside, either preceding or during the collapses. So your focus on a bomb squad protocol here, when they would already be on site and obviously in communication with rescue personnel, is a red herring.

Here is MINE, addressing YOUR post on this matter.

I am currently listening to the fourth section of audio from the FDNY Manhattan dispatch.
(Found here and at 10:00 Brooklyn dispatch comes on and advises that the PD has a report of a bomb in the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. What is the first thing he says?

Stay the **** out.

Imagine that.
I've made it as simple as possible for you. I've posted YOUR post, when YOU brought up the FF Oral Histories, so you would understand WHY I would like you to address the post. It's YOUR claim, and I have shown you that if someone thought there were BOMBS around, they would have warned other firefighters to STAY THE **** OUT!!

Now, I cannot make it any more simple as I have.

Care to address it now? Or are you going to continue avoiding it? I know, it hurts your fantasies, but do try your best to work though it

 

[dafydd]

You do realize that the underlined words, are in fact a link, right?
Here is YOUR post.





Here is MINE, addressing YOUR post on this matter.



Imagine that.
I've made it as simple as possible for you. I've posted YOUR post, when YOU brought up the FF Oral Histories, so you would understand WHY I would like you to address the post. It's YOUR claim, and I have shown you that if someone thought there were BOMBS around, they would have warned other firefighters to STAY THE **** OUT!!

Now, I cannot make it any more simple as I have.

Care to address it now? Or are you going to continue avoiding it? I know, it hurts your fantasies, but do try your best to work though it

That seems simple enough for even a truther to understand.

 

[beachnut]

Yet no one lost their job, got court-martialed, or reprimanded in any way.

19 terrorists murder people, are solely responsible for 911 events, and you want to punish people who did not do 911. Good for your, next time you are robbed, or beat up, you need to punish yourself for letting it happen. Good logic, no more insurance claims, the insurance company will blame you for being robbed and take your money, and put you in jail for negligence, even if you locked the doors.

The only people who did things wrong on 911 were 19 murderers. No one lost their job? They were killed by 19 terrorists.

Why have you not lost your job, it takes minutes to figure out 911, Passengers on Flight 93 figure out 911 in minutes and took action. You can't figure out 911 with over 9 years and given the answers. Not too good for you.

 

[RedIbis]

[qimg]http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/semicontrolled_demolition.png[/qimg]

What's actually "funny" about the cartoon is that you could swap The South Tower for WTC 7 and it would read:

Based on my analysis the Towers were brought down by terrorists.

WTC 7, in a simultaneous but unrelated event, was brought down by a series of unprecedented architectural failures.

 

[Sabretooth]

What's actually "funny" about the cartoon is that you could swap The South Tower for WTC 7 and it would read:

Based on my analysis the Towers were brought down by terrorists.

WTC 7, in a simultaneous but unrelated event, was brought down by a series of unprecedented architectural failures.

Building what?

 

[carlitos]

Building what?

 

[dafydd]

Like when he dropped one cardboard box on top of another and argued that a 110-story skyscraper would behave the same way?

I must admit, that was the most wonderful moment in the history of modern civilization.

Priceless. Gage has a brain like a cow's udder.

 

[dafydd]

What's actually "funny" about the cartoon is that you could swap The South Tower for WTC 7 and it would read:

Based on my analysis the Towers were brought down by terrorists.

WTC 7, in a simultaneous but unrelated event, was brought down by a series of unprecedented architectural failures.

I've identified the flaw in your reasoning.

 

[dafydd]

Folks, there is no easy way to the problem of debunking walkyrie. The reason is that walkyrie never ever responds anything posted at him or her. Probably doesn't even read what you write.

It's best to ignore those utterings. Everybody can see they are just ideological statements informed by errors and lies concieved of several years ago.

But if you poke him/her with a stick you are always sure of a breathtakingly brainless reply. Fun.

 

[walkyrie]

Day by day, the people that still believe the official george bush theory about 9/11 are falling in a state of desperate denial about what really happened on 9/11

 

[beachnut]

Day by day, the people that still believe the official george bush theory about 9/11 are falling in a state of desperate denial about what really happened on 9/11

That is the standard fact filled post that keeps 911 truth failing faster than free-fall forever. Keep up the good work, 911 truth delusions are safe, evidence free nonsense.

 

[TexasJack]

I just saw this at SLC. It appears Sibel Edmonds is an anti-Semite. http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/201...inant-of-us-presidential-elections/#more-3346

Are the elections results of US presidential elections determined by 2% of the population? Can the five million or so Jewish population be counted as the US majority? Does the Israel lobby shape the majority of US voters’ decisions? Is Israel the main determinant of political elections’ results when it comes to high US public offices? I don’t know your take or answers to these questions, but we do have ‘theirs, on the record, loud and clear, and of course, delivered with hubris and cockiness

and goes on to state that the media is controlled by Jews.

I like this comment at SLC:

So what's the difference between Sibel Edmonds and Dr. David Duke, you ask?

Dr. David Duke may be a scumbag and an anti-Semite; however, Dr. David Duke is smart enough to reject 9/11 conspiracy theories.

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=27396589&postID=5935125876371018072

 

[Christopher7]

Christopher 7 said "The aluminum cladding was blown up to 600 feet in all directions." I assume this is to assert that the cladding blew away from the rest of the debris and didn't provide a source for melted aluminum for the hot debris pile.

Yes, the aluminum cladding was dispersed over a large area as was most of the pulverized debris.

Uh, I'm just a layperson, but if the south-facing cladding on the North Tower flew towards the South Tower and the north-facing cladding on the South Tower flew towards the North Tower, uh, maybe, wouldn't that leave lots of aluminum cladding right in the debris pile?

As I said in my last post, there would be some but it would be dispersed.

Then you tried to eliminate aluminum furniture, which I have in my hone office right here

Executive offices might have some aluminum furniture but this was an office building and they don't use expensive aluminum furniture for the rank and file workers.

cars and trucks and ambulances and the planes where the aluminum vanishes because the planes busted up (?)

Evidently you did not read my post. It got buried in a barrage of denial. The plane was shredded as it entered the building, pulverized along with everything else and mixed in with a million tons of debris. Look at the photos of burned out cars, trucks and ambulances at the WTC. There are no pools of aluminum.

I don't know much about all that either but shucks it sure seems to me like you could find some aluminum somewhere in that debris. Oh, yeah, Tri already showed us a whole bunch of it!

A whole bunch? A few pieces. Certainly not enough to account for "There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators."
or this photo of molten steel being extracted by a crab claw.

Depending on which color/heat chart you use, the pale orange to yellow metal is in the 1000^oF to 1400^oF range. Aluminum would be liquid at the temperature and would not be semi-solid like the glob being extracted.

And then hot steel girders in the fiery part of the debris touching the molten aluminum so the ends would drip aluminum when pulled out? Even if the fires are melting the aluminum and not the steel itself, the unmelted steel could bring up molten aluminum just by being there. Seems sensible to me, I don't know.

Wishful thinking. Aluminum is silvery in daylight and the people who reported molten steel would have noticed that. Why not accept that the beams were dripping steel?

 

[NoahFence]

or this photo of molten steel being extracted by a crab claw.

You know, I wonder how realistic it is for molten steel to be picked up by a crab claw made of steel.


I mean, if you own that thing, aren't you going to be a bit hesitant to use your steel claw to pick up molten steel?

 

[Animal]

Yes, the aluminum cladding was dispersed over a large area as was most of the pulverized debris.

As I said in my last post, there would be some but it would be dispersed.

Executive offices might have some aluminum furniture but this was an office building and they don't use expensive aluminum furniture for the rank and file workers.

Evidently you did not read my post. It got buried in a barrage of denial. The plane was shredded as it entered the building, pulverized along with everything else and mixed in with a million tons of debris. Look at the photos of burned out cars, trucks and ambulances at the WTC. There are no pools of aluminum.

A whole bunch? A few pieces. Certainly not enough to account for "There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators."
or this photo of molten steel being extracted by a crab claw.

[qimg]http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/4759/crabclawwithpistonseala.png[/qimg]

Depending on which color/heat chart you use, the pale orange to yellow metal is in the 1000^oF to 1400^oF range. Aluminum would be liquid at the temperature and would not be semi-solid like the glob being extracted.

Wishful thinking. Aluminum is silvery in daylight and the people who reported molten steel would have noticed that. Why not accept that the beams were dripping steel?

If that were a picture of molten metal, the pincher would not have been able to lift it the way it is.

More deliberate lies of willful ignorance. Why not accept the troofer myths for what they are.......cynical delusions and fantasy.

 

[Animal]

You know, I wonder how realistic it is for molten steel to be picked up by a crab claw made of steel.


I mean, if you own that thing, aren't you going to be a bit hesitant to use your steel claw to pick up molten steel?

A pincher claw could not pick up MOLTEN steel to begin with. That is another classic troofer error. One that has been repeated so many times despite the obvious being pointed out to them.

 

[beachnut]

... Executive offices might have some aluminum furniture but this was an office building and they don't use expensive aluminum furniture for the rank and file workers.

The cheap stuff is aluminum too. A false statement, made up for no good reason. Does Gage use the Al chair nonsense too?

.... The plane was shredded as it entered the building, pulverized along with everything else and mixed in with a million tons of debris. Look at the photos of burned out cars, trucks and ambulances at the WTC. There are no pools of aluminum.

Yes there are. You are makiing up nonsense out of thin air.

...A whole bunch? A few pieces. Certainly not enough to account for "There are both video tape and still photos of the molten steel being "dipped" out by the buckets of excavators."
or this photo of molten steel being extracted by a crab claw.

Not steel melted, it could be hot steel glowing, but not melted, you said very low temperatures, so the photo is not melted steel, could be glowing. No pools of melted steel found. What was your point? I have seen burning leaves give off the dripping stuff, called sparks, burning stuff like paper, etc. But you are claiming temperatures of 1400 f, so no melted steel. What was your claim? How does your claim fit into 911? Like Gage's failure talks, which he begs for money?

Looks like plywood. Darn, you were trying to say steel melts at 1400 f? Molten steel dripping 1400 f parts, can't be dripping steel you said it was too cold. Looks like sparks dropping from plywood. But go ahead make up a whole want to fail for ever fantasy about it. Got the white balance setting for the camera? Got anything?

...Depending on which color/heat chart you use, the pale orange to yellow metal is in the 1000^oF to 1400^oF range. Aluminum would be liquid at the temperature and would not be semi-solid like the glob being extracted.

Wait, you said there were no pools of Al. What is your story? Which one is it?

...Wishful thinking. Aluminum is silvery in daylight and the people who reported molten steel would have noticed that. Why not accept that the beams were dripping steel?

What color is coals of wood in daylight? Why is the photo not in daylight? What time was the photo? F stop?