Consciousness question

[Mercutio]

Or beligerent perhaps? Obviously this site has set itself up to argue against such things. And what would be the point, if nobody came to argue?

No. This site is not set up to argue against anything at all that has evidence to support it. Scientific progress is made when we bring evidence to bear and change the views we formerly had. We only argue against things that there is evidence against. Like, say, your notions of the brain as receiver. Or your notion of dreams as taking place in another dimension. Or your idea that humans are not the result of natural selection. Or your fantasies about what you know about what happened before the big bang.

When you bring evidence, just watch and see how differently you are treated.

 

[Iacchus]

No. This site is not set up to argue against anything at all that has evidence to support it. Scientific progress is made when we bring evidence to bear and change the views we formerly had. We only argue against things that there is evidence against. Like, say, your notions of the brain as receiver. Or your notion of dreams as taking place in another dimension. Or your idea that humans are not the result of natural selection. Or your fantasies about what you know about what happened before the big bang.

When you bring evidence, just watch and see how differently you are treated.

Yes, if what I say is merely evidence of a delusional mind, you would be correct. I have presented plenty of pieces of the puzzle, however. It's just a matter of how you wish to put those pieces together.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Can you enumerate those pieces, just for the sake of it.

 

[Iacchus]

Can you enumerate those pieces, just for the sake of it.

We can begin with the brain being a receiver for one thing, because obviously it is ... at least in the sense that it receives external sensory input (signals) from our senses.

 

[Tricky]

What, do you mean like 1 + 1 = 2? Well, I suppose we could try 2 - 1 = 1. But then again, it still pretty much amounts to the same thing.

No, that's not new either. The search function won't let me find how many times you have used this like searching for when you used the radio analogy, but those of us who have been here before have seen you regurgitate this many times. Your act is in reruns, Iacchus. We've seen it all before. Maybe you should take up a hobby that will help you stretch your interests. I recommend reading.

 

[Mercutio]

We can begin with the brain being a receiver for one thing, because obviously it is ... at least in the sense that it receives external sensory input (signals) from our senses.

...of course, this sense is not at all the meaning you intend when you say it picks up consciousness signals. Refresh my memory; what is the evidence that supports that claim?

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

We can begin with the brain being a receiver for one thing, because obviously it is ... at least in the sense that it receives external sensory input (signals) from our senses.

So, the brain does processes sensory input. Now what? Lets follow him dear Mercutio! Well, I know you have, but lets see where he is going again, and slowly.

 

[Iacchus]

So, where does the notion of self come from? Is it merely a matter of the brain mixing all the sensory information, and adding an additional ingredient, called "the observer," and voila! we have self-awareness? Or, do you deny that such a thing as an observer exists? If not, then where does it come from? And why does it seem to be so inextricably bound to the other signals which the brain has processed, specifically the external signals from our senses? Could it be that it too is merely a signal which a brain is processing from another source? Would it be wrong to deny that it was on par with the rest of the signals that the brain receives? And what is the brain really, other than an elaborate means of processing information? This is really all it's doing isn't it?

 

[Iacchus]

And why does it seem to be so inextricably bound to the other signals which the brain has processed, specifically the external signals from our senses? Could it be that it too is merely a signal which a brain is processing from another source?

Evidence of this would occur when we are dreaming, when we find a means to override these "external signals," at least consciously, and enter a different realm entirely. And yet it is possible to become fully conscious in your dreams, and not be the least bit aware of "the body" which lay there in the bed.

 

[SuperCoolGuy]

Evidence of this would occur when we are dreaming, when we find a means to override these "external signals," at least consciously, and enter a different realm entirely. And yet it is possible to become fully conscious in your dreams, and not be the least bit aware of "the body" which lay there in the bed.

Not true. Many people, when they are conscious of the fact that they are dreaming, can detect the position of their body and even the movement of their limbs.

When your body enters sleep, your brain systematically shuts off signals to your motor functions.

However, it is possible for you to regain consciousness (fully wake up) and be without motor function. Many times, this phenonmenon is coupled with disembodied voices, strange forms, ringing of the ears, the feeling of pressure on the body.

Also, you can regain motor control and not regain consciousness, like sleep walking.

I once had a dream of myself sleeping in a particular position (on my back with my knees bent a certain way) and facing the closet door with the bathroom light on and a feeling that something bad was going to happen. I realized I was sleeping, forced myself to wake up, and found myself in that position, facing the closet door, but the bathroom light was not on, and the perspective was a little off.

I was dreaming, realized I was dreaming, evaluated my body position, and decided to wake up.

Also, through meditation, it is possible to retain conciousness and lose the feeling of the body. It's also possible to modify your sense of self and feel disembodied, give yourself the impression of levitation, and start hallucinating monsters or people or voices. Buddhist monks have to put up with this all the time.

Confuse your sensory perception and the brain really starts messing with your sense of reality. Just look at poor Emanuel Swedenborg.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

So, where does the notion of self come from?

An illusion based on our use of language.

Is it merely a matter of the brain mixing all the sensory information, and adding an additional ingredient, called "the observer," and voila! we have self-awareness?

Something like that, except that this "observer" is an invention, not an actual entity.

Or, do you deny that such a thing as an observer exists?

More than that, I see it as it is, a mere collection of memories and desires, without any clear or stable ontological status.

If not, then where does it come from? And why does it seem to be so inextricably bound to the other signals which the brain has processed, specifically the external signals from our senses?

Lets see it this way. Suppose that Im an evil scientist and so I invite you to my lab to make some research. I put you to sleep and then I extract your brain from your body. I carefully connect every cell of your brain to transmiters/receivers that are in your body, in order for the senses to still transmit the relevant info to the brain and viceversa. Then I put your body on a train, while you are still sleeping and let you go. When you wake up... where are you?

Could it be that it too is merely a signal which a brain is processing from another source?

No. You have state cero reasons as of why this should be.

Would it be wrong to deny that it was on par with the rest of the signals that the brain receives?

Yes of course, you should demonstrate first that it still exists if I do something to the brain. For example, I can easily demonstrate that the light still exists even if I damage your eyes.

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Evidence of this would occur when we are dreaming, when we find a means to override these "external signals," at least consciously, and enter a different realm entirely. And yet it is possible to become fully conscious in your dreams, and not be the least bit aware of "the body" which lay there in the bed.

And this proves what? I tell you what. It proves that the same brain processes involved in experiencing the world are still present when the body is sleeping. Whats the misterious thing about this?

 

[Mercutio]

Iacchus, many of your questions are answered in the videos I have been asking you to watch. Blackmore specifically addresses the idea of "the observer" (the cartesian theatre), for instance.

If you watched them, perhaps you would not have to ask so many questions out of ignorance. You could ask questions that allow you to increase your knowledge, instead. These questions of yours have been answered before, and the answers have been soundly ignored. Why ask the questions, if you intend to ignore the answers?

 

[Iacchus]

Not true. Many people, when they are conscious of the fact that they are dreaming, can detect the position of their body and even the movement of their limbs.

It's possible, but not required.

When your body enters sleep, your brain systematically shuts off signals to your motor functions.

And when I dream, it hardly ever entails any (direct) awareness of my physical surroundings.

However, it is possible for you to regain consciousness (fully wake up) and be without motor function. Many times, this phenonmenon is coupled with disembodied voices, strange forms, ringing of the ears, the feeling of pressure on the body.

Yes, and I have experienced similar things myself, where I in effect had to "wrench" myself awake.

Also, you can regain motor control and not regain consciousness, like sleep walking.

Yet there must be some rudimentary form of awareness, otherwise what's to keep you from walking into a wall?

I once had a dream of myself sleeping in a particular position (on my back with my knees bent a certain way) and facing the closet door with the bathroom light on and a feeling that something bad was going to happen. I realized I was sleeping, forced myself to wake up, and found myself in that position, facing the closet door, but the bathroom light was not on, and the perspective was a little off.

I once had a dream where I was walking down a dirt road with high steep banks. And a coyote approached, saying, "I'm not going to eat you. I'm not going to eat." And I'm thinking, "Oh yeah, we'll see about that," and I mustered all the strength I could in my leg, thinking I would kick him in the head, and bam! I kicked my foot smack into the wall.

I was dreaming, realized I was dreaming, evaluated my body position, and decided to wake up.

I have had dreams where I told folks I haven't died yet, so they shouldn't expect me to stick around too long. And they would go, "Huh? What do you mean? We have always been here." And about that time I would wake up and say, "See I told you so," and then do my utmost not to crash their reality, which was usually to no avail. The best thing to do is forget it happen, albeit it doesn't usually happen right away.

Also, through meditation, it is possible to retain conciousness and lose the feeling of the body. It's also possible to modify your sense of self and feel disembodied, give yourself the impression of levitation, and start hallucinating monsters or people or voices. Buddhist monks have to put up with this all the time.

Yes, and I am merely asking whether this is internal to the brain or, an external signal that the brain actually receives. Also, remember we must override the sensory signals (which, are no doubt more prominent) before we can begin to detect any of this "other" activity.

Confuse your sensory perception and the brain really starts messing with your sense of reality. Just look at poor Emanuel Swedenborg.

Which, is when the brain really starts picking up on weird signals, eh?

 

[Iacchus]

An illusion based on our use of language.

Then who or, what is it that is doing the articulating?

 

[Z]

So, where does the life of you go when the brain ceases to function? It's obviously not bound up in the brain or, any other part of the physical body.

Bzzzz!!!! WRONG!!! Thanks for playing! The life of you ceases when the brain ceases to function. Why should this be? Because brain function is life.

 

[Z]

We can begin with the brain being a receiver for one thing, because obviously it is ... at least in the sense that it receives external sensory input (signals) from our senses.

Actually, the receivers are the sensory organs themselves... the brain is a processor, not a receiver.

Learn a little biology. One day you might need it.

 

[Mercutio]

Then who or, what is it that is doing the articulating?

Watch the videos. Particularly Susan Blackmore.

Do you want answers? Or do you just like asking questions in vain?

 

[Iacchus]

Bzzzz!!!! WRONG!!! Thanks for playing! The life of you ceases when the brain ceases to function. Why should this be? Because brain function is life.

The brain is what channels consciousness ... as pertains to our spirit and/or soul.

 

[Mercutio]

The brain is what channels consciousness ... as pertains to our spirit and/or soul.

This baseless assertion of yours has been addressed many times before (see Tricky's collection of your posts). It is quite simply wrong.