Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

[casebro]

There is a flag etiquette. With may be the force of law. That is, that it's OK to fly the flag of different country on American soil. But the U.S. flag must also be displayed, more prominently. Anybody ever seen Old Glory more prominently displayed along with the rebel flag? Me neither. Seems to me they are making a choice...

while to my way of thinking, you can't have one without the other.

With that attitude, "The South Shall Fall Again!"

 

[Piggy]

Edit: here's the clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xej5i4Cos8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL84CDCCDEA6649BE3

Wow.

Thank you for finding that.

That scene has stuck with me my whole life. It's great to see it again.

 

[Piggy]

Anybody ever seen Old Glory more prominently displayed along with the rebel flag? Me neither.

Whoa there, hoss!

It's not uncommon where I live.

And you might see a POW/MIA flag flying just below those two.

 

[epepke]

You may want to clarify your vexillological understanding. I don't see Cadell flying the Stars and Bars in the picture that accompanies the article. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it outside of history webpages and flag books.

An accurate statement about the Stars and Bars plus the word "vexillological." I like.

 

[Piggy]

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it outside of history webpages and flag books.

You obviously don't get down to Georgia much.

Except for one brief (and politically disastrous) period, some variation of the S&B has flown over this state since 1879.

 

[Checkmite]

There is a flag etiquette. With may be the force of law. That is, that it's OK to fly the flag of different country on American soil. But the U.S. flag must also be displayed, more prominently. Anybody ever seen Old Glory more prominently displayed along with the rebel flag? Me neither. Seems to me they are making a choice...

From the point of view of the US, there has never been a country called the "Confederate States of America".

 

[Arisia]

I do wonder why the southerners who fly the 'stars and bars' for reasons of pride don't fly the 'Don't tread on me' flag instead, it was created by a man from South Carolina, and it was one of the first symbols of a winning cause, the Revolutionary War. And it doesn't carry the baggage the 'stars and bars' does, since it's not a symbol just for white southerners to take pride in.

Of course, if someone has a Confederate flag that's been passed down in the family, that's a true artifact of that time for that family, and I certainly wouldn't ask someone to destroy such a thing. But that wouldn't be flying out in the open air anyway, 150 years on.

 

[epepke]

There is a flag etiquette. With may be the force of law. That is, that it's OK to fly the flag of different country on American soil. But the U.S. flag must also be displayed, more prominently. Anybody ever seen Old Glory more prominently displayed along with the rebel flag? Me neither. Seems to me they are making a choice...

It doesn't have the force of law. The rules of flag etiquette say that if the US flag is displayed with it, it shouldn't be less prominent. However, you don't have to display the American flag. A British pub can display the Union Flag (not the Union Jack unless it's on a ship, damn it). In any event, there are no rules against displaying a defunct flag.

It's in poor taste, but that's about it.

 

[MaGZ]

In general, in the US, hate speech is protected. There are some exceptions, most of which would, as you mentioned, fall under broader prohibitions like telling people to go out and commit an act of violence.

There are, however, hate crime laws at both federal and state level which apply to violent crimes against a person which were motivated by specific categorizations (race, religion, sex, national origin at the federal level some states add in sexual orientation and/or gender identity). At the federal level, it can let the federal government step in a prosecute a given hate crime, this is primarily a protection against certain areas not prosecuting crimes against certain groups of people. At the state level, they are primarily to add additional jail time to the given crime.

Examples:
White guy beats up a black guy. Not a hate crime.
White guy beats up a random black guy while yelling "I'm tired of you damn porch monkeys!". Hate crime.
Black guy beats up white guy. Not a hate crime.
Black guy beats up random white guy while yelling "I'm tired of you damn crackers!". Hate crime.

This example is never a hate crime. Blacks are never charged with hate crimes only whites.

 

[Darth Rotor]

How about the words "Kill corbin, and bring me his head?" Purely theoretically, of course.

Each of those words is legal.

Next question?

 

[MaGZ]

I live in North Carolina, and was once stationed in the Capitol city of South Carolina. In every instance that I was able to discern the actual intention behind displaying the Confederate flag, racism was involved. In most every instance, there was an intention to offend and provoke Black Americans with the display. All of the "heritage not hate" rationalizations were patently false. Of course, it is certainly possible that some number of Rebel Flag displayers actually harken back to a lost war and identify so strongly with ancestors they never met and a way of life they never knew that they feel compeled to display a symbol they have no actual connection to. I just never met any of these Rebel Flag wavers.



My very first day in South Carolina, my wife and I were on a house hunting trip in advance of our report date. It's only a 2 hour drive from where we were (Fort Bragg) to where we were going (Fort Jackson), so we drove down for a weekend to check the place out.

We arrived in Columbia at about lunch time, and the first fast-food place we discovered was Maurice BBQ. It claimed to have "real" BBQ - an obvious lie as the only "real" BBQ to be found in the US exists only in southeastern North Carolina. Still, we were hungry and it was on the interstate, so we stopped - right under the 100' flag pole with the Garrison size Rebel Flag.

My African/Puerto Rican wife and I sorta hung in front of the menu board, well back from the order counter because we weren't familiar with the menu. A couple of locals came in after us, and the teen-ager behind the counter looked past the spouse and I and asked to take the locals order. No biggy, she probably recognized that we weren't ready to order. After taking their order, she disappeared and a new counter person came up to take our order. The former counter person was White, the new one was Black - not the sort of thing you generally attracts ones attention, except that after taking our order, they swapped back again.

The wife found us a seat and I wandered around the place, needing to rest my backside after sitting in the car for two hours. I saw a stand with religious tracts in the corner - the kind that used to get handed out around the neighorhood I grew up in. I get a kick out of them, so I grabbed a couple to read while I waited.

The first was titled something like "Why the darker races were better off under slavery". No **** - right there on display in the restaurant. I pointed them out to the (white)girl behind the counter. She turned to the Black girl and motioned for her to talk to me. The tracts were there at the instance of the owner, Maurice Bessinger, as were copies of his books. The guy actually owned (owns?) a chain of successful BBQ restaurants, all of which displayed these messages. THIS WAS IN 2000 - barely 10 years ago.

This was the guy who had a line of BBQ sauces in a few supermarkets. The Blacks learned of this, went into the stores and smashed the jars onto the floors.

 

[MaGZ]

Race seems to be the easiest explaination as it certainly was a key ingredient.
The "stars and bars" has been the symbol of Southern defiance in the face of loss.
To many southerners Sherman's "march to the sea" was the sum total of Northern
evil. The only time in U.S. history that civilians were raped, murdered (their read),
homes/businesses burned, lives destroyed.
The feeling that the Yankees run this country and rarely miss the opportunity to
get a dig at the "hillbillies" still prevails.
Not the story for all but still a part of it.

Sherman was more of a racist that most Southerners today. Rape buy soldiers against civilians was rare.

 

[MaGZ]

I somewhat disagree. I think the revival of the flag was also meant to be reminiscent of the antebellum south, but with intentional emphasis on the racial inequalities of such. The antebellum south has passed out of living memory.

The revival of the flag was in the 1950s and 1960s as a response to the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[MaGZ]

I disagree. In my experience, those who fly it are overwhelmingly social trolls who are trying to get a rise out of minorities who don't like it, and generally have no tangible connection with the antebellum South.

I doubt they are looking for a fight with Blacks, but the flag is a symbol of White pride.

 

[MaGZ]

I have a Confederate Battle Flag in a frame over my desk. It is a little over 14" x 14". It is very old.

I cannot speak for others but I know why I have it, and racism has nothing to do with my it. Neither do I harken back to the "Glory Days" of the old south. It does not represent rebellion, hatred, slavery, or the KKK. It is simply a tangible connection to my father and his father before him; a reminder that they were both young men and foolish in their day and that such men will engage in risky undertakings for what they believe are good causes.

I know that many consider the flag to be a symbol of racism and hatred, and while I am not happy about that fact I understand why it is so. Whether or not racism is the primary motivation for displaying the flag I cannot say although I suspect that it is not. I suspect that my motivation is the more common - at least I hope it is.

You should not considered your southern ancestors to have been foolish. You disgrace them.

 

[MaGZ]

Nah. I can handle overt bigotry, and so could my wife.

The disturbing thing was his BBQ. It was basically a pork and mustard sandwich.




My sole instance of civic minded activism was leading an effort to get his bottled BBQ sauce off the shelf of military commissaries (on-post grocery stores). It worked, but there was resistance.

If you had a real job, instead of sitting in the military for twenty years, do you think it would be right to for someone to get you fired for your opinions?

 

[tyr_13]

I doubt they are looking for a fight with Blacks, but the flag is a symbol of White pride.

Pride in trying to maintain an evil system of slavery and then being beaten into submission for being treasonous scum.

Great thing to be proud of.

 

[MaGZ]

Wow I got a warning for swearing on here just a couple months back. Is it OK now?

Anyway, I then presume you're also then fine with her responding "Good morning, you stupid (dreaded n word which one cannot say even here)." Right? After all if 2 wrongs make a right, 3 must be downright glorious.

Let's here it for free speech!




No, OTHERS have labelled her. And very possibly incorrectly. But it's more fun to find an excuse for them to hate on someone they're upset about being hateful.



Yes, they can make false (or at least debatable) assumptions and decide to throw a rock at her porch. But no one seems to care about that.

Another assumption and you know what they say about those. PS I am not saying no way is this true. But she "testified" to the local govt she was not and didn't sound defiant (as one would expect from a troll) but quite upset. It is also known her ancestors trace back to the Confederacy. I guess it couldn't be that she simply likes the flag for those reasons or reasons other than being a racist or instigator. Break out the torches n pitchforks!

With that smiley, you apparently approve of violence against those who display the Confederate flag. What other forms of violence do you advocate and for what reasons?

 

[MaGZ]

Pride in trying to maintain an evil system of slavery and then being beaten into submission for being treasonous scum.

Great thing to be proud of.

There are no White Nationalists today that advocate slavery.

 

[phildonnia]

? He was displaying his flag on HIS property. How does that "violate the property rights of his neighbors" - ? Your link provides little info and it all sounds quite sketchy.

Sorry, yes that article is crap. Here's a better one from the Bee. I sometimes forget that not everyone lives in Northern California.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/03/02/3442165/sacramento-man-who-hung-swastika.html#storylink=misearch

Apparently, the point of the swastika flag was to prevent his neighbor's house from being rented. They sued him for harassment and the judgement required that he take down the flag.

The U.S courts have repeatedly ruled that laws outlawing speech based on its content are unconstitutional. However, laws regulating time, place, and manner of expression are OK.