Confederate flag causing a flap in SC

[Metullus]

I have a Confederate Battle Flag in a frame over my desk. It is a little over 14" x 14". It is very old.

I cannot speak for others but I know why I have it, and racism has nothing to do with my it. Neither do I harken back to the "Glory Days" of the old south. It does not represent rebellion, hatred, slavery, or the KKK. It is simply a tangible connection to my father and his father before him; a reminder that they were both young men and foolish in their day and that such men will engage in risky undertakings for what they believe are good causes.

I know that many consider the flag to be a symbol of racism and hatred, and while I am not happy about that fact I understand why it is so. Whether or not racism is the primary motivation for displaying the flag I cannot say although I suspect that it is not. I suspect that my motivation is the more common - at least I hope it is.

 

[GreyArea]

The "stars and bars" has been the symbol of Southern defiance in the face of loss.

You may want to clarify your vexillological understanding. I don't see Cadell flying the Stars and Bars in the picture that accompanies the article. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen it outside of history webpages and flag books.

 

[Chaos]

I have a Confederate Battle Flag in a frame over my desk. It is a little over 14" x 14". It is very old.

I cannot speak for others but I know why I have it, and racism has nothing to do with my it. Neither do I harken back to the "Glory Days" of the old south. It does not represent rebellion, hatred, slavery, or the KKK. It is simply a tangible connection to my father and his father before him; a reminder that they were both young men and foolish in their day and that such men will engage in risky undertakings for what they believe are good causes.

I know that many consider the flag to be a symbol of racism and hatred, and while I am not happy about that fact I understand why it is so. Whether or not racism is the primary motivation for displaying the flag I cannot say although I suspect that it is not. I suspect that my motivation is the more common - at least I hope it is.

One tangible difference here is that you aren´t displaying it openly, saying on a flagpole on your lawn. You´ve said it yourself - the flag is there to remind yourself of something, not to tell every passing black person "my great-grandfather used to own your great-grandfather".

The obvious comparison - me and the Nazi flag - won´t work here. I wouldn´t display that foul thing anywhere even if it wasn´t forbidden; in fact I feel uneasy just seeing that foul thing, say in a computer game (I don´t play the Germans, or against the Germans, in Steel Panther for that reason). With the obvious exception of historical museums, everyone here who does display the Nazi flag uses it to remind himself of the "glory days" under the Austrian Corporal... same goes for the legal substitutes such as the Imperial German flag that said people use in public.

 

[Drachasor]

I think the connection to slavery, whether intended by the person flying the flag or not, is an inescapable part of the Confederate flag. Flying it is in very poor taste, but it is protected speech.

 

[corbin]

I totally understand the freedom of speech argument. No one has tried to imply that flying the confederate flag falls under 'hate speech'? Is the symbolism not that strong (as say, a nazi flag would/could be?)

Laws against "hate speech" are merely a vehicle for political censorship, as are the other concessions we make for our not exactly free speech.

I think they should all be abolished. Words should never be illegal.

 

[Philosaur]

I'm also frankly tired of the hypocrisy of people who think burning the U.S. flag is one's "right" but the right to simply fly a flag on your own property? Goodness no, ban that!!

Who said anything about banning the Confederate flag?

It can be a trolling thing as mentioned above but my experience/impression is that usually it's simply a pride of one's roots, pride in the South in general kind of thing. You have to realize that back then, the northern U.S. and the southern U.S. were almost like 2 distinct countries. Very different in very many ways and much distrust/dislike on both sides of the other.

Well, your anecdotes are certainly convincing, but let me counter with my own experience as someone living in Mobile, Alabama.

A good number of the vehicles I see displaying the Confederate flag also have a decal of the cotton industry logo. You can claim all you want that these guys are just pining for the good ol' days of sitting on the porch sipping mint juleps while their happy African-American "employees" help out around the yard--you know--the "culture" of the South. But what I see is a bunch of racist d-bags antagonizing black people. The fact that there is some sheen of plausible deniability (it's not racism, it's heritage) only underscores how passive-aggressive the whole thing is.

ETA: I am NOT saying that anyone who displays the flag is racist. But I think if you choose to display it, knowing full well how hurtful it can be to others, you invite questions about your tolerance or respect for black people. Just sayin'.

Of course not (with rare exception, there will always be some loon like that around) and only a complete moron thinks so. It is about "Southern pride" in general.

Nice. So anyone who disagrees with you is a complete moron? Do you now live, or have you ever lived, in the South?

 

[dasmiller]

The first was titled something like "Why the darker races were better off under slavery". No **** - right there on display in the restaurant. I pointed them out to the (white)girl behind the counter. She turned to the Black girl and motioned for her to talk to me. The tracts were there at the instance of the owner, Maurice Bessinger, as were copies of his books. The guy actually owned (owns?) a chain of successful BBQ restaurants, all of which displayed these messages. THIS WAS IN 2000 - barely 10 years ago.

That's . . . seriously disturbing.

After I read your post, I had to google Bessinger, and . . . it didn't get any less disturbing.

 

[Chaos]

Laws against "hate speech" are merely a vehicle for political censorship, as are the other concessions we make for our not exactly free speech.

I think they should all be abolished. Words should never be illegal.

How about the words "Kill corbin, and bring me his head?" Purely theoretically, of course.

 

[sarge]

Of course not (with rare exception, there will always be some loon like that around) and only a complete moron thinks so. It is about "Southern pride" in general.

I'm not even a partial moron, and I am aware that virtually all of the people that I've seen prominantly display this flag are racially motivated to do so. I've never met a person that displays this symbol for "Southern Pride" in any way that is divorced from the racial overtones. Frankly, I doubt there are any such persons.

Nope - part of the "Southern Pride" is a longing for the good ol days, when darkie knew his place. Without a doubt, every person that displays this symbol is aware of the reaction it is certain to cause in Black Americans, and this is almost always a desired consequence of the display.

 

[sarge]

That's . . . seriously disturbing.

Nah. I can handle overt bigotry, and so could my wife.

The disturbing thing was his BBQ. It was basically a pork and mustard sandwich.

After I read your post, I had to google Bessinger, and . . . it didn't get any less disturbing.

My sole instance of civic minded activism was leading an effort to get his bottled BBQ sauce off the shelf of military commissaries (on-post grocery stores). It worked, but there was resistance.

 

[ZirconBlue]

I'm not even a partial moron, and I am aware that virtually all of the people that I've seen prominantly display this flag are racially motivated to do so. I've never met a person that displays this symbol for "Southern Pride" in any way that is divorced from the racial overtones. Frankly, I doubt there are any such persons.

I can give you an example. The Kentucky High School I went to had the "Rebels" as our mascot. Band Boosters would fly the flag in the stands in support of the "Marching Rebels" at competitions, and, I can tell, you this was totally thought of as merely a symbol of "southern-ness".

In hindsight, this was all kinda silly, especially considering that Kentucky wasn't even part of the CSA, and that, due to and industrial boom in the area, many of the band members (and most of the Band Boosters) were Northern transplants who'd only moved to Kentucky in the past few years.

Not that I think this one example negates your overall point.

 

[sadhatter]

Yes - I understand this. But whereas certain images have been classified as 'hate speech', my understanding is that the confederate flag is not seen as being something so acrimonious as to label it as such. Or has such an attempt been made & failed?

I mean - people can walk around with signs that read God hates (a British term for cigarettes) and these signs haven't been deemed 'hate speech' so it must be a pretty darned difficult court to please.

As a canadian i have been a bit on the fence of of the rebel flag is offensive.

One main reason being, i see it here all the time. And whenever i do, it is by a person who, to be polite about it, isn't the most equal opportunity being on earth. If i were to make a 1 to 10 scale of its use, it ranges from 1( redneck pride) to 10 ( I hate *******).

Never have i met someone who had a non intimidating reason for displaying it, and i know quite a few folks who are into the civil war, and like the history of the south. And having american relatives, again, i can say this pattern holds true.

I believe MST3K got it right......

Crow - What is that mike?
Mike - Oh that is a rebel flag crow.
Crow- Well what does it mean?
Mike - well, an appreciation of the rich history and culture of the south, and the hope that the south will rise again.
Tom - What will the south do when it rises again?
Mike - ( uncomfortable.) Well, nothing specific, you know , it will rise again.
Tom - Okay, but what actions will take place when the south rises again?
Mike - Well it isn't about the actions taken, but about the pride , and that the south might...rise again.

And on it goes, the subject of why the south isn't " risen" being uncomfortably avoided.

I would say it is a loophole of being a dick. When one is around their buddies one can crack all the black people jokes they want, and look upon it in pride. And when the boss gets a complaint at work they can say " I am just showing southern pride.". So the long and short is, its a swastika for people who don't have the fortitude to actually display a swastika. ( not that i am promoting nazis, but it does take a certain level of confidence to openly display that one agrees with them.)

 

[bigred]

I think it's totally within her rights to fly the flag.

I also think it's totally within he neighbor's rights to greet her with, "Good morning, you racist cracker bitch."

Let's here it for free speech!

Wow I got a warning for swearing on here just a couple months back. Is it OK now?

Anyway, I then presume you're also then fine with her responding "Good morning, you stupid (dreaded n word which one cannot say even here)." Right? After all if 2 wrongs make a right, 3 must be downright glorious.

Let's here it for free speech!

Obviously, this person has the right to fly this flag. Her expression is a constitutionally protected freedom. Of course, in doing so, she has also labeled herself

No, OTHERS have labelled her. And very possibly incorrectly. But it's more fun to find an excuse for them to hate on someone they're upset about being hateful.

Everyone knows exactly what she is and can easily decide for themselves how to deal with her.

Yes, they can make false (or at least debatable) assumptions and decide to throw a rock at her porch. But no one seems to care about that.

I think it's important to note that this woman hasn't lived in this neighborhood all of her life or even a long time, but only just moved there in 2010 and immediately started displaying the confederate flag. She clearly came there to start trouble.

Another assumption and you know what they say about those. PS I am not saying no way is this true. But she "testified" to the local govt she was not and didn't sound defiant (as one would expect from a troll) but quite upset. It is also known her ancestors trace back to the Confederacy. I guess it couldn't be that she simply likes the flag for those reasons or reasons other than being a racist or instigator. Break out the torches n pitchforks!

I don't personally advocate violence as a response to her lunacy, but

 

[Alt+F4]

I'm also frankly tired of the hypocrisy of people who think burning the U.S. flag is one's "right" but the right to simply fly a flag on your own property? Goodness no, ban that!!

Perhaps I missed it, but who in this thread suggested banning the Confederate battle flag? I also read nothing in the OP link suggesting such a thing, even among the woman's black neighbors.

 

[bigred]

Who said anything about banning the Confederate flag?

Here? No one. There? About several hundred, I believe, and I'm sure quite a few more all over the country. Was a general comment.

Well, your anecdotes are certainly convincing,

Thanks for the sarcasm. You might have noted I provided no anecdote, but made a point of saying it was a general impression and one established over several decades living here.

You can claim all you want that these guys are just pining for the good ol' days of sitting on the porch sipping mint juleps while their happy African-American "employees" help out around the yard--you know--the "culture" of the South.

I would claim nothing of the kind. Maybe, like the Confederate flag, it's a simply traditional symbol of the South and - gasp - has nothing to do with blacks whatsoever.

But what I see is a bunch of racist d-bags antagonizing black people.

And you base that assumption on....what? Do the people displaying the cotton thing repeatedly harass blacks or do some other racist thing? Or did you just decide to create your own "truth?"

ETA: I am NOT saying that anyone who displays the flag is racist. But I think if you choose to display it, knowing full well how hurtful it can be to others, you invite questions about your tolerance or respect for black people. Just sayin'.

That's fine, I hear you. But I think the people making those assumptions are the ones who need to look in the mirror, generally speaking. They would be well served to actually have some evidence one way or the other vs using it as an excuse to throw out the race card, which has been so rampant in this country for so long it's beyond ridiculous. I'm so sick of silly hissies it defies description.

Nice. So anyone who disagrees with you is a complete moron? Do you now live, or have you ever lived, in the South?

For example

Try reading my earlier posts, including the one I referenced that you are commenting on above. The answers to your questions are on easy display.

 

[bigred]

I'm not even a partial moron, and I am aware that virtually all of the people that I've seen prominantly display this flag are racially motivated to do so. I've never met a person that displays this symbol for "Southern Pride" in any way that is divorced from the racial overtones. Frankly, I doubt there are any such persons.

Nope - part of the "Southern Pride" is a longing for the good ol days, when darkie knew his place. Without a doubt, every person that displays this symbol is aware of the reaction it is certain to cause in Black Americans, and this is almost always a desired consequence of the display.

Your honor, Exhibit B.

 

[Piggy]

I totally understand the freedom of speech argument. No one has tried to imply that flying the confederate flag falls under 'hate speech'? Is the symbolism not that strong (as say, a nazi flag would/could be?)

For some people, it's intended as an overt support for racism.

(Full disclosure: Lifelong citizen of the Deep South here, w/ roots several centuries old, and longer than that on the Cherokee side.)

Some skinhead, neo-Nazi/Aryan, and Klan groups use it that way.

For others, though, it's like... OK, did you ever see that 1970s American TV show "All in the Family"?

Anyway, there's this one episode where Archie and his son-in-law Mike are locked up in a storeroom, and they get to arguing about politics and racism, and... well, here's part of it... Archie's drunk, btw:

Mike: Did you ever think that possibly your father just might be wrong?

Archie: My old man? Don't be stupid. My old man? Let me tell you, he was never wrong about nothing.

Mike: Yes he was, Arch. My old man used to call people the same things as your old man. But I knew he was wrong. So is your old man.

Archie: Don't tell me my father was wrong. Let me tell you something, a father who made you is wrong? A father, the breadwinner of the house there? The man who goes out and busts his butt to keep a roof over your head and clothes on your back you call him wrong?

Father, that's the man that comes home, bringing you candy. Father is the first guy to throw a baseball to you. And take you for walks in the park holding you by the hand? My father held me by the hand, hey, my father had a hand on him, though, I tell you. He busted that hand once, and he busted it on me to teach me to do good.

My father, he shoved me in a closet for seven hours to teach me to do good, 'cause he loved me.

Don't be looking at me! Let me tell you something, you're supposed to love your father 'cause your father loves you. How can any man who loves you tell you anything that's wrong?

So for some people, it's like, these were my family, a long time ago but they were my family, and you're telling me I can't memorialize them?

The cult of the dead hero is very strong around here, whether it's war veterans or police or fire fighters, or whoever.

So if you're telling folks, look, you need to hide that flag now, because it's offensive to other people, you gotta expect a certain number of folks to say, in various ways, "**** you!"

What you're saying to them is that the people they come from were no good.

Do you really expect them to just agree with that, and say, "Oh, yeah, I guess you're right"?

Not gonna happen.

 

[bigred]

Archie Bunker might not've been the best example to use. Hear you though. Classic scene from an incredible TV show (I find it sad you felt a need to ask if people had seen it).

Edit: here's the clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Xej5i4Cos8&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL84CDCCDEA6649BE3

 

[Piggy]

We arrived in Columbia at about lunch time, and the first fast-food place we discovered was Maurice BBQ.

Ah, Maurice's. They haven't changed a bit. Was in one last year, and the same crap was still cluttering up the place.

 

[Piggy]

Archie Bunker might not've been the best example to use. Hear you though. Classic scene from an incredible TV show (I find it sad you felt a need to ask if people had seen it).

The poster I was responding to said s/he wasn't from USA, btw.

But yeah, I think Archie is a perfect example.

After all, when it came to people he knew, Archie did not normally behave like a racist, even though he talked the talk. (In fact, at the one point in the series when he was asked to make a decision, to actually join an overtly racist group, he walks.)

Nevertheless, he defends his father, and he holds a lot of beliefs and maintains a lot of positions and defends a lot of symbols that his son-in-law is both puzzled and incensed by.

And he doesn't want to be told by anybody else what he can or cannot think, and he certainly doesn't want anybody coming around and telling him that his family is something to be ashamed of.