Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

ETA: Mortals work toward GODHOOD? So this isn't really a monotheistic belief system, right?
No, does it make much difference?

It's funny how this mythology is soooooo weird compared to zombies and cannibalism. Yep, that's right. Those are Christian beliefs.

I like how the fact that God had sex with Mary as if the virgin birth is not strange. It is. People are just familiar with the virgin birth.
 
I like how the fact that God had sex with Mary as if the virgin birth is not strange. It is. People are just familiar with the virgin birth.


Okay, I think I'm a little dense today, but I just can't parse that first sentence (is it really a sentence?) to get any meaning out of it.

Could you explain?
 
Okay, I think I'm a little dense today, but I just can't parse that first sentence (is it really a sentence?) to get any meaning out of it.

Could you explain?

Watch the cartoon that FSM linked.

Remmeber, this is weird like "string theory" is weird to rconk...

But, I agree, religions that are different than the woo you've been raised with are really weird... Mormons have some weird beliefs-- but they aren't really weirder than being told you are eating the actual body of Christ and that Jesus rose bodily from the dead and that god impregnated a virgin as a "spirit"... so be kind...

People have an "inner knowingness" about this truth...

But, Randfan, was this the story you had heard as a kid... was the cartoon supposed to be mocking or serious do you think. Was it generally correct?
 
As to the cartoon (I only had patience for the first 25%), it seemed eerily similar to Scientology but, more seriously, I have seen somewhere that some Mormons think that they will get a planet to rule after death and that the quality will depend on how many children they breed.

I don't know how mainstream that is, but it certainly seems to flow from the cartoon, if that is based on real beliefs.

As an afterthought, that also reminds me of a creationist (not Mormon) I once had an exchange with. He explained the vastness of the universe (this one thought that was real) as being designed for humans after death too. Heaven really is up there....
 
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Okay, I think I'm a little dense today, but I just can't parse that first sentence (is it really a sentence?) to get any meaning out of it.

Could you explain?
Oh fine, now it's expected of me to be coherent. ;)

I meant that Christians think the idea of God having sex with Mary was weird but the idea of god magically impregnating Mary isn't.

BTW, what makes god (the father) Christ's father? He didn't sleep with Mary. He didn't pass on his DNA, did he? Does god the father have DNA?
 
Well... it's just the imagery-- it's like you don't want to think of your parents having sex-- but the Mormons have a lot of sex in their story... was that cartoon really for kids, randfan? Was this a story you heard as a kid or do the let you know about god etc. sex life as you get older.

I remember singing Silent Night in church and asking what "round yon virgin" meant-- I think I was told virgin meant "pure". Another teacher I know had a student ask her what sodomy was as he'd apparently picked it up in bible studies of some kind and I guess that teacher wouldn't tell him--
 
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But, Randfan, was this the story you had heard as a kid... was the cartoon supposed to be mocking or serious do you think. Was it generally correct?
There have been, I believe, 3 threads on this cartoon.

Here's one.


From that thread Zygar (another former mormon) has a very good point by point take on it. I don't quite agree with all of Zygar's points but it's pretty good.

I was raised Mormon, and was something of a theologian in my years as a Mormon. My first reaction is that there is a large focus on the use of the word "sex". I do not understand this in the slightest because sex is rarely discussed in the Mormon church. It is not seen as wrong between a husband and wife, but it is a very private thing, and Mormons do not focus upon any sexual aspect of the religion.

I will pick this cartoon apart item by item.
  • The story of the young Elohim is accurate.
  • No statement has ever been made about Elohim's wife or wives. It is not contrary to the theology that he may have multiple, but there is no indication of if he has more than one or not. It is clear from Mormon doctrine that he must have a wife.
  • Mormon gods called a council meeting? According to the religion there is only one Heavenly Father, Elohim. There is not a pantheon.
  • The story of the council is otherwise accurate except for the part about the curse. No one was cursed to be born with dark skin due to this "battle" by any account I have read.
  • They skip over everything in between Adam and Eve and Jesus since Protestants agree on this segment of the theology.
  • There is never a statement that Elohim had sex with Mary. But he is considered the physical father of Jesus. Is this any different from standard Christian theology?
  • No Mormon doctrine exists about if Jesus was married. Many Mormons assume he was married to Mary Magdalene, but it is not in any canon or doctrine of the church.
  • Since Jesus was not known to be married, Joseph Smith did not claim direct descent from him that I am aware of. Of course, this is the sort of thing I would have trouble knowing about since a few of his more radical statements were removed from the doctrine in the 1800s.
  • The whole point of the Book of Mormon is that Jesus came to the Americas to preach to the native people. This is a key point of the theology.
  • The whole part about the Nephites is accurate to the doctrine.
  • I will not comment on the phrases "treasure seeker" and "tall tales" except to call them propaganda.
  • Other than the above point, the segment about how the doctrine of the Mormon church came to be is all very true. Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon religion in every sense.
  • The short list of rules is accurate. The Word of Wisdom (no drinking or smoking, etc) is one of the most interesting doctrines because it is a rarity in current religions.
  • I never once heard that I would stand in judgement before Joseph Smith. It doesn't jive with the theology, but it's plausible that Joseph Smith said something which implied it.
  • "Polygamist gods" is a funny title. Not all Mormons at any point in the history of the religion were polygamists. But those that were did expect to remain as such in the afterlife.
  • Joseph Smith liked to brag... a lot! But he did not consider himself more important than Jesus Christ.
 
Well... it's just the imagery-- it's like you don't want to think of your parents having sex-- but the Mormons have a lot of sex in their story... was that cartoon really for kids, randfan? Was this a story you heard as a kid or do the let you know about god etc. sex life as you get older.
The cartoon, as far as I know, is not from the Mormon Church. I've never heard of it in my life until I came here. Mormons don't touch on the sex. You must infer that fact. It's a big part of Mormon theology that God had a body. That God was literally the father of Christ.

I remember singing Silent Night in church and asking what "round yon virgin" meant-- I think I was told virgin meant "pure". Another teacher I know had a student ask her what sodomy was as he'd apparently picked it up in bible studies of some kind and I guess that teacher wouldn't tell him--
Yeah, theology can make for some uncomfortable situations.
 
No, does it make much difference?

It's funny how this mythology is soooooo weird compared to zombies and cannibalism. Yep, that's right. Those are Christian beliefs.

I like how the fact that God had sex with Mary as if the virgin birth is not strange. It is. People are just familiar with the virgin birth.

Au contraire, the virgin birth always seemed super weird to me. But out of all Christianity, I guess the thing that always struck me as most strange was the idea that someone (even God) would want to create a son only to send that son down to earth to be tortured and murdered. That to me is weirder than a virgin birth.

But, wow. I didn't know all that stuff about Mormonism. I've been very ignorant and I'm trying to learn. I don't mean to come across as overly critical of Mormons.

Thanks for the quote from Zygar about the cartoon. I appreciate it!
 
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Thanks Articulett, for all of the links. Jeez, those lost boys... terribly sad.

I'm googling as fast as I can to learn as much as I can about LDS.
 
Bear in mind that the Lost Boys and polygamy are part and parcel of FLDS and not LDS. The Mormon church bears, IMO, some responsibility for creating the situation but it's not currently involved.

Yes... the article notes that...

but the boys believe they are going to hell for being "excommunicated"-- the LDS is part of the group helping these boys I believe. I just included it because we were talking about polygamy earlier... and Krackauer mentions it...
 
Yes... the article notes that...

but the boys believe they are going to hell for being "excommunicated"-- the LDS is part of the group helping these boys I believe. I just included it because we were talking about polygamy earlier... and Krackauer mentions it...
Thanks,

I'm not sure how the LDS is part of anything. FLDS reject the LDS church. It's fallen so what they do or don't believe is of no consequence.
 
ETA: And Randfan, I'm in the middle of figuring out LDS, FLDS, so please pardon my error.

Trinity. Mormonism teaches polytheism (versus monotheism taught in the Bible), believing that the universe is inhabited by many gods who produce spirit children. Joseph Smith declared, "I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370). Mormon Apostle Bruce R. McConkie spoke about the Godhead in this way, "Plurality of Gods: Three separate personages: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-577).

God. In Mormon theology, the god of our planet is believed to have once been a man on another planet, who through self-effort and the help of his own father-god, was appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth, and now has a physical, resurrected, glorified body. Mormonism teaches that through the atonement of Christ and by their good deeds and "holy" living, men can one day become gods, and with their multiplicity of "goddess wives," populate their own planets. (This is what the celestial marriage and the Mormon temple vows are all about.) Mormon theology, therefore, humanizes God and deifies man.3


from http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/mormon.htm

The problem with a lot of the sites I'm finding is that they are Christian sites trying to pick on Mormonism for being a 'cult' when, as RandFan pointed out, their beliefs are no stranger than Christian beliefs. But you can certainly see a bias in this information.

Part of what Articulett was trying to get into my thick skull about my discussions with rcronk is that we don't use the same vocabulary and we have markedly different meanings when we say something. And that's my fault for not understanding it but continuing to try and argue it with rcronk. Much of my argument went on an assumption of monotheism in Mormonism.

When I asked if his god was all powerful, he said yes. That's a kind of difficult answer in Mormonism, is it not? I'm sure the answer is supposed to be yes, but then shouldn't it be followed up with, "but we ALL get to be gods and get to be ALL powerful one day if we do it all really well. We get a planet even..."

How can god be ALL powerful and yet share power with a million billion other schmoes who achieve godhood? How can you have a bunch of gods ALL powerful at the same time? Are there rankings of gods? Is there a number one god, kind of the CEO god and then a bunch of other less powerful gods?

Thinking about this is like trying to think about how Santa organizes his elves at his North Pole factory. I don't mean offense to rcronk, but really. It makes my brain hurt to do the logistical gymnastics in figuring this out... Again, though, I feel the same when trying to get a feed on exactly how many virgins one gets in Islamic heaven or if Hera was the wife of Zeus and the mother of Hercules or when I ponder how the Red Sea supposedly parted...

(and to be fair, I felt that same sort of brain pain in college when we had to do math with infinity in the equation and put a 4 in front of it... so, 4 times infinity... how do you have four of all? Owwwwwwwchhhhhhhhhh....)

Maybe it's just my brain has a slow hard drive. :drool:
 
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The problem with a lot of the sites I'm finding is that they are Christian sites trying to pick on Mormonism for being a 'cult' when, as RandFan pointed out, their beliefs are no stranger than Christian beliefs. But you can certainly see a bias in this information.
On the continuum of least-cult-like to most-cult-like, Mormons are more to the extreme than most mainstream Christian Churches. I think they have some valid points about that.

But you are right, once you get past that they are all pretty much the same with their irrational beliefs.
 
I just listened to the podcast I referred to above, and it gives a very good history of the Mormon church... I think it sounded fair. I'd love for you to hear it randfan and tell me what you think. It's a two part segment, and it goes over the general history... what the people are taught, and it gives insight into rconk's viewpoint as well.

I think rconk may have had doubts about his faith; I don't think he was ever anybody I would recognize as an atheist.

And yes... all religions have long convoluted stories and explanations and loose ends and things that only god can explain... and apologetics and blind corners and conundrums-- I just think the brain learns not to notice the oddities... to fill in the "blind spots" with faith so the story makes sense.

BTW, randfand-- WNYC has a good podcast too this week (on mind-brain sciencey things--totally good) http://feeds.wnyc.org/radiolab

Forensics, archeology, genealogy, and genetics are devoted to figuring out what really happened. In this hour, we hear surprising stories of playing detective, and find that what really happened in the past is not always what you'd expect. We start at a trash dump in Egypt, where we find Jesus, Satan, sissies, and porn. Next, the mystery of how hundreds of old letters written to the same woman were discovered on the side of Route 101. And lastly, a blood sampling tour of Asia reveals a prolific baby-maker and a potential world conqueror.

Yep... it even mentions papyrus.
 
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I just listened to the podcast I referred to above, and it gives a very good history of the Mormon church... I think it sounded fair. I'd love for you to hear it randfan and tell me what you think. It's a two part segment, and it goes over the general history... what the people are taught, and it gives insight into rconk's viewpoint as well.
I'm halfway through the second podcast. Thanks.
 

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