Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

[FSM]

I'm not putting down Mormonism. I think all religions sound weird.

 

[The_Animus]

I love your signature movie quote FMS. It's one of those quotes that shows how something that can seem to make sense can quickly be shown to be ludicrous

 

[Elind]

delusion - A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness.

Thanks.

I could list pages of my experiences where people have been cured of pot-smoking-induced lung cancer in minutes - coughing up blood and chunks of lung one minute, just fine the next - of many many other illnesses being cured in minutes - including infants,

I don't think you can, and if you tried they would be proven as no more than hearsay. You can see that stuff happen any day on the faith healer TV channels, and they are all frauds and have often been proven so.

While you are at it you might throw in some miracles where a few people lived, but many more died in the same event, children included. "I thank God for saving me, and killing all those others in the process...", and don't forget the thanks for winning the football game while we're at it. I actually heard that recently too.

Being called delusional and "not all there" is disappointing and arrogant. We disagree - is it impossible to disagree without name-calling?

It is NOT name calling!! I don't want to call you names, and if I did there are much worse that could be used. YOUR BELIEF is delusional. It's hard to say that without attaching you. If you wish, don't participate and we'll have a separate thread discussing delusional beliefs. You can choose not to read the comments, and will then not have your feelings hurt.

What is arrogant is you saying we should consider you a prophet (or carrying the message of others far removed) with nothing but your word to go on.

Bring us your miracle evidence, doctors diagnosis and all and let's talk about that, and do tell us what situation you were in when people were coughing up pieces of lung and how you diagnosed their cure, instantly.

 

[Pixel42]

I can accept the argument that giving us free will means that God can't intervene to stop us doing bad things to each other. But manmade evil is a drop in the ocean compared to natural evil. Tsunamis, plagues, children dying of cancer, the drawnout loss of a loved one to dementia, loving couples who would make wonderful parents remaining childless whilst 12-year-old girls who have been raped by their own fathers fall pregnant ... How can any of this be reconciled with an all-powerful deity who is (a) benevolent and (b) willing and able to intervene in human affairs enough to give a known conman a bunch of golden plates to translate?

BTW rcronk your reference to "many other illnesses being cured in minutes - including infants, just to take placebo effect out of the picture" suggests you need to read up on the several kinds of bias that are eliminated by controlled studies. Homeopaths who claim that using animals as subjects eliminates the placebo effect, and therefore the apparently positive results with animals proves homeopathy works, make the same mistake. Here's a recent JREF thread on the subject: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90097

 

[articulett]

I just wish they'd read the other woos here and tell us how they are different or why we should take them more seriously. To me they all seem the same ("my woo is the true woo")-- but they don't seem to recognize themselves in each other. This has always fascinated me. What is one to make of a world of people all certain they have truths that are in conflict with each other's truth and not supported by actual evidence--the kind that proves the earth is spherical and the like?

To me this is evidence of how readily men can be convinced of their rightness and how readily humans can be deluded-- but it certainly doesn't inspire the notion that any of them have any actual truths.

I'll stick with science and facts, thanks.

 

[Tanstaafl]

I just wish they'd read the other woos here and tell us how they are different or why we should take them more seriously. To me they all seem the same ("my woo is the true woo")-- but they don't seem to recognize themselves in each other. This has always fascinated me. What is one to make of a world of people all certain they have truths that are in conflict with each other's truth and not supported by actual evidence--the kind that proves the earth is spherical and the like?

This is actually what started me on the path to the Dark Side^TM. I guess I was about 8 or 9 when I suddenly realized that the were other people in the world, millions of them in fact, who had a different religion, and who believed theirs just as much as we believed ours. I started to work on mentally proccessing that, and about 25 years later I finally admitted I was an atheist. There was just no rational reason I could come up with why my religion should be more true than theirs, but we could easily both be wrong.

 

[RandFan]

Thanks for posting that video, RF. Very interesting.

How do you think you would have reacted to that video had you watched it say, six month or a year after returning from your mission?

Likely the same as rcronk. Actually, when I first found out about the Book of Abraham controversy I was not bothered by it at all. It wasn't until I started seriously questioning and I the issue came up again that I was willing to consider the alegations.

Until a believer can entertain "what if...?" then nothing will change their mind.

 

[RandFan]

Again, apparently God did not create eternal laws such as justice, mercy, etc. If He violated justice, the universe would cease to honor Him and He would cease to be God....

But god does kill people and that is just?

ETA: I will be adding an item in the moderated thread. I would like first to organize them a bit.

 

[rcronk]

Holy cow - do you people ever sleep?

FSM - It is possible that God is subject to eternal laws. According to Mormon doctrine, matter, spirit and intelligence cannot be created or destroyed, and so intelligences, for example, have always been around. So, to say that the only two options are 1. God is a mean hateful jerk, or 2. God doesn't exist, is setting up a false dichotomy. Another possibility is the one I've described. Since neither of us can prove that God is or is not bound by eternal laws, the options are open that He is not a mean hateful jerk but has given us an opportunity to choose to come here and experience for ourselves, joy, misery, pain, pleasure, sickness, health, and learn from it all and progress.

The Animus - You asserting that these stories are made up is assuming that it is false. Why can't people choose to say "I don't know" and be agnostic instead of false until proven true or even true until proven false? I created a thread a while back called the "Religious Book Exchange" - that's the only method I have of letting you know that these things are true. You could try it out with the Book of Mormon if you want to. Is it possible that a few limited mortals just don't understand everything about God? Assuming that we don't know everything, wouldn't it be more prudent to say "I don't know" instead of assuming our view of how He would have to be (or even what others say He is like) is correct and therefore, since that view sucks, He must not exist at all?

Pixel42 - Yes, natural disasters are a different problem. There are a few things about them that I've been thinking about lately. Some of the deaths and misery associated with them are the fault of the people who choose to take risks and live in high risk areas. Perhaps God wants to teach us how to avoid dangerous situations and be better risk assessors. Some people can only afford to live in dangerous areas because the housing costs there are lower - perhaps God wants to teach us to help others and be charitable. Some natural "evils" cannot be avoided - like disease or genetic defects. Perhaps God wants us to know pain in order to know pleasure, sadness to appreciate happiness. Where do the innocent go when they die? According to Mormon doctrine, they go straight into paradise into the arms of a loving God who completely and absolutely takes upon Himself 100% of all of their pain, misery, and worries. I've heard people talk a lot about God drowning innocent babies with Noah's flood. It is said that the people were extremely wicked at the time. Perhaps it was better off to have everyone die in a flood and the innocent received into paradise and absolute happiness instead of the innocent being raped, tortured, etc. by the evil people at that time. I think it's strange to instantly assume that the only possibility is that God is an evil, malicious jerk - and therefore God must not exist.

RandFan - Actually, when I saw the video you posted that is from a known anti-Mormon source, I decided to go see if there were any other points of view on the matter so I could get a more objective overall look at it. Perhaps the video is anti-Mormon biased and the apologists are pro-Mormon biased - but in the absence of a truly unbiased source, I'm forced to look at all of the biased sources, noting their bias, and hopefully they'll balance each other out so I can get a better picture. As for God being just and killing people, see my reply to pixel42 above. Thanks for going one item at a time.

all - I'm going to take a rest from this thread for a bit and then afterward I'll focus more on the moderated thread. I have enjoyed these conversations - you guys make me think a lot about my beliefs and my point of view and that's beneficial.

I was even talking to my dad today and playing devil's advocate (no offense) with him, arguing the points you all have brought up with me to him to see how he'd react. It was very interesting and it was eye opening for him. I think when a person just hangs out with their own ilk, they take a lot of things for granted. That's why I go hang out with people who's views differ from my own a lot. It's been good for me. Thanks again.

 

[FSM]

rcronk, take a break, man.

You have handled yourself with self control and integrity and have been more open to discussion than many people who come to the forum to discuss religion. AND you've had to handle all of us skeptics tag teaming you at the same time. Good on ya.

I wish you well and hope that nothing I've said here has made you feel attacked.

Take care,

FSM

ETA:I hope that you haven't felt PERSONALLY attacked, I should say.

 

[rcronk]

Thanks FSM. You don't know how much your comments meant to me just now. I really appreciate it.

 

[Tanstaafl]

all - I'm going to take a rest from this thread for a bit and then afterward I'll focus more on the moderated thread. I have enjoyed these conversations - you guys make me think a lot about my beliefs and my point of view and that's beneficial.

I was even talking to my dad today and playing devil's advocate (no offense) with him, arguing the points you all have brought up with me to him to see how he'd react. It was very interesting and it was eye opening for him. I think when a person just hangs out with their own ilk, they take a lot of things for granted. That's why I go hang out with people who's views differ from my own a lot. It's been good for me. Thanks again.

Good for you!

 

[articulett]

I'm sure I've been the most provacative... but I can't help it... I so much want to know what gives people this confidence when they see a world of conflicting viewpoints and evidence. Once I realized there was more than one "infallible guy" and more then one supposed rubric for living happily ever after-- I became desparate for real evidence... And I am curious how other belief systems sidestep this... I know part of it has to do with fear of losing faith. But how can someone trust faith alone when their supposed Eternity is at stake--especially once you realize a lot of people are confident but wrong if any of them are right?

In any case... take a break. You'v earned it.

 

[rcronk]

Thanks articulett.

 

[Elind]

Cheers

 

[RandFan]

I'm really busy at the moment folks and I think I would like a bit of a break. Rcronk and I have decided to go slower with fewer points. If no one objects that's what we will do.

I would love to continue if everyone else is up for it. You'll just have to be patient.

RandFan

ETA: Looks like I'm not alone. Yes, take a break rcronk. I appreciate the time you've taken and your willingness to try and keep an even keel.

Thanks

 

[articulett]

This is actually what started me on the path to the Dark Side^TM. I guess I was about 8 or 9 when I suddenly realized that the were other people in the world, millions of them in fact, who had a different religion, and who believed theirs just as much as we believed ours. I started to work on mentally proccessing that, and about 25 years later I finally admitted I was an atheist. There was just no rational reason I could come up with why my religion should be more true than theirs, but we could easily both be wrong.

That is pretty much my story. If our ETERNITY was really at stake... and it was "arrogant to question god"-- why weren't the worlds scientists doing everything in their power to make sure we had the right rubric and the right infallible people to ensure our eternity? What could be more important? Especially when so many people were clearly getting in wrong... and if any of them were right-- that meant the majority could be suffering for ETERNITY! What if "born again" didn't mean "reincarnation" like it sounds like-- but whatever the fundies said it did? And how did they know? What if THAT was the rubric?

I was 12 when I wrote a letter to the newspaper about this... which they printed... but no one seemed concerned. I couldn't figure out how people could be so cavalier about ETERNITY-- because once I figured out there were several supposed rubrics, I became very concerned. I wanted extra credit in the right rubric-- and I had no way of telling what was right except by confirmation bias. But that sure wasn't good enough if my ETERNITY was at stake. It seemed that people were making their beliefs "more true" by convincing themselves and others that it was "the truth". But Jim Jones did that. And I knew that didn't make it any more true-- even if people were dying for that truth.

Why don't adults think about this stuff when they inflict these memes on their kid? If we live forever and how we feel about it is all based on what we believe and which rubric we follow as judged by an invisible all powerful guy-- then that should be a problem that concerns all of mankind, right? I thought I'd figure things out as I grew up, but I just learned that others learn not to ask themselves such questions lest it makes them (scary thought) "lose faith".

I suspect the men just have utter conviction they are right for the most part and the women go along afraid of the consequences if they're wrong. That's the only thing I can figure from all my years of trying to understand how so many people can believe this "life is a test" thing but not care if they have the right rubric. Eternity is something you don't want to mess up. I am relieved to understand that there is no evidence thant any part of your consciousness survives death. It takes away a lot of angst-- the whole possibility of feeling anything for ETERNITY-- much less suffering... or making kids who could suffer for ETERNITY. Life is precious because it is NOT eternal. That makes it worth savoring, enjoying, and bettering for future generations.

Faith is just not a good way to know truth. This is the parental guide that I wish I got, and that I passed on to my child: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/dawkins2.html

 

[articulett]

I found this on youtube while watching Kathy Griffins "offensive" acceptance speech... it's about "holy books"... I'm not sure if anyone else would be interested... but it's relevant to the topic... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNlmZP1eFOY&NR=1

 

[FSM]

Holy Koloff(?) mother of all weirdness!

I've been looking through Mormon information to get more background on the history and teachings (particularly about the nature of god and god being born as a man? ...) and I came across this which was billed on youtube as being banned by the Mormon church...

I'm interested in Randfan's opinion and in everyone else's and if you have any links that are not amazingly cumbersome, I would love suggestions. I'm really interested in all of this.

I think all religions are weird. But this is particularly weird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo


ETA: Mortals work toward GODHOOD? So this isn't really a monotheistic belief system, right?

 

[articulett]

Holy Koloff(?) mother of all weirdness!

I've been looking through Mormon information to get more background on the history and teachings (particularly about the nature of god and god being born as a man? ...) and I came across this which was billed on youtube as being banned by the Mormon church...

I'm interested in Randfan's opinion and in everyone else's and if you have any links that are not amazingly cumbersome, I would love suggestions. I'm really interested in all of this.

I think all religions are weird. But this is particularly weird.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo


ETA: Mortals work toward GODHOOD? So this isn't really a monotheistic belief system, right?

Holy Kolob.

The demons all got nappy haired...