Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

articulett said:
I haven't, but I've heard the similarities. I have much more of a fascination with real life-- real medical stories-- real science (not sci-fi)-- true crime (not "thrillers") Clive Wearing fascinates me... he's in a perpetual twilight zone-- and it's really hard on his wife... and there's nothing anyone can do to fix it... ever.
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Interesting. I no longer read fiction. I haven't in nearly two decades. I like science, philosophy and politics.

However, I'm a huge fan of fiction when it comes to movies. Don't get me wrong. I watch a lot of documentaries but I do love fiction. Those are two of my favorites and I did not want to watch 50 first dates. I'm damn glad I did.

To each his or her own.

I agree Clive Wearing is very significant. As a former dualist I have to also say that he is a good example of why our memories don't survive us. There is no mechanism for them to survive. If a "soul" was all that was requisite then Clive wouldn't likely have a problem.

As a dualist one of the biggest influences on my thinking leading me away from dualism was Phineas Gage. Are you familiar with him?

An accident that damaged his brain fundamentally changed the kind of person he was. Our personality isn't stored in some ethereal spirit. It's a product of brain states.
 
Yes... I had heard of Phineas Gage when I was young (12)... I was in a car accident, and I remember the doctors talking to my father about possible brain damage... and I got my first inkling that I was intimately tied in with this thing called the brain. (I looked asleep because my eyes were swollen shut, and I couldn't talk due to a tracheotomy, so I imagine they didn't think I could hear the discussion.) My mother died in that accident.
 
articulett said:
Yes... I had heard of Phineas Gage when I was young (12)... I was in a car accident, and I remember the doctors talking to my father about possible brain damage... and I got my first inkling that I was intimately tied in with this thing called the brain. (I looked asleep because my eyes were swollen shut, and I couldn't talk due to a tracheotomy, so I imagine they didn't think I could hear the discussion.) My mother died in that accident.
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I feel inadequate to respond. Anything I'm sure will be trite. I'm sorry.
 
RandFan said:
I feel inadequate to respond. Anything I'm sure will be trite. I'm sorry.
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I didn't mean to make a conversation bomb-- it was over 30 years ago, so I think I'm "over it"-- I was just trying to give a few background details of how I overheard the conversation between my dad and the doctor regarding brain and my personality. I've often wondered if I have mental blindspots that I may not be aware of because of that accident-- my I.Q. is fine... but it was an orbito-frontal lobe injury-- I am a "blurter", but my son is as well-- so it's probably genetic... not due to the accident.
 
articulett said:
I didn't mean to make a conversation bomb-- it was over 30 years ago, so I think I'm "over it"-- I was just trying to give a few background details of how I overheard the conversation between my dad and the doctor regarding brain and my personality. I've often wondered if I have mental blindspots that I may not be aware of because of that accident-- my I.Q. is fine... but it was an orbito-frontal lobe injury-- I am a "blurter", but my son is as well-- so it's probably genetic... not due to the accident.
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Cool, I figured that you would likely be over I just couldn't think of anything to respond with.

I'm cognizant of the silly and trite things people say when confronted with death. The worst being the inevitable comparison "yeah, my ____ died...."

You have a very interesting and eventful life story.
 
RandFan said:
Cool, I figured that you would likely be over I just couldn't think of anything to respond with.

I'm cognizant of the silly and trite things people say when confronted with death. The worst being the inevitable comparison "yeah, my ____ died...."

You have a very interesting and eventful life story.
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It's funny, because even with my experiences with death, I never know what to say either when someone mentions a death. I think the worst thing is when people complain about little things right in front of you knowing that you just suffered a big loss. I remember vividly hearing this woman complain of a backache when I had just lost my husband a couple of days before. I remember thinking-- "would you like to trade problems?" Maybe she was feeling awkward or just trying to make conversation or avoid the topic. She was just being her normal complaining self because her world was spinning as normal and mine had turned upside down. I've probably been just as insensitive during my own self absorbed moments.
 
articulett said:
It's funny, because even with my experiences with death, I never know what to say either when someone mentions a death. I think the worst thing is when people complain about little things right in front of you knowing that you just suffered a big loss. I remember vividly hearing this woman complain of a backache when I had just lost my husband a couple of days before. I remember thinking-- "would you like to trade problems?" Maybe she was feeling awkward or just trying to make conversation or avoid the topic. She was just being her normal complaining self because her world was spinning as normal and mine had turned upside down. I've probably been just as insensitive during my own self absorbed moments.
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Bingo. Yes, I know I have been self absorbed and insensitive.
 
The conversation has moved on and I don't want to drag it back to a point already adequately covered but for the record: the first time Mormon missionaries knocked at my door I invited them in and let them go through their spiel. They showed me a picture of their prophet and his 12 disciples, all of whom were men. I asked why there were no women. They explained. I listened politely, showed them the door, and crossed the LDS off the list of religions I would give any further serious consideration to. [Yes, I am a woman].
 
Pixel42 said:
The conversation has moved on and I don't want to drag it back to a point already adequately covered but for the record: the first time Mormon missionaries knocked at my door I invited them in and let them go through their spiel. They showed me a picture of their prophet and his 12 disciples, all of whom were men. I asked why there were no women. They explained. I listened politely, showed them the door, and crossed the LDS off the list of religions I would give any further serious consideration to. [Yes, I am a woman].
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I think a similar scenario lead to Julia Sweeney's eventual atheism. And I think I'm thankful to Mormons for the same reason... my Mormon friend enlightened me to the idea that "infallible guys" were a dime a dozen-- and if we were supposed bet out eternity on something-- we better look at facts not the claims of men.
 
Randfan-- it's tangential-- but for anyone who is interested in how the brain fool itself-- there is a great episode of WNYC this month...

http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/episodes/2006/05/05

It's rather apropos as I think all people who believe that faith can give them truth are similarly deluded to the people in the episode... plus I think it's fascinating understanding how the brain is a "reality interpreting" machine in so many ways. I think Dawkins TED speech (available for download) was on this very topic-- how our brains evolved to perceive the world in a given way and David Linzen has a great new book on the subject called the Accidental Mind. I love what genetics is teaching us-- but if I had to do it over again, I'd study neurology-- because I think that is the best and most exciting frontier right now. It explains rconk's sureness to me. I can't fix it-- but I CAN understand why people can be sure of things that aren't based in the reality that is the same for all of us.

Pixel, the Mormons come to Julia Sweeney's door a second time telling her that they "have a message from god just for her" (or something similar--it's part of their spiel)-- and she tells them, "thanks, I already got it" after her journey for the truth and what is real and what makes sense and her eventual "beautiful loss of faith story" as she calls it. He "Letting Go of God" monologue is charming and funny and something I can relate to very well-- you can download clips from it all over the web (put Julia Sweeney God and MP3 or podcast into a search engine... it's been on NPR, FFRF's podcast, Point of Inquiry, etc. Also the show is available in CD and DVD form-- worth owning.)

And randfan-- check out this new book on the subject-- I'll have to add it to my "things that make me eternally procrastinate doing what I should be doing list":

http://3quarksdaily.blogs.com/3quarksdaily/2007/09/second-nature-b.html
http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.essay&essay_id=204052

(I love having JREF members to share my geek excitement with, I must say.)

Now, I'll try not to digress again... but I can have "poor impulse control"...
 
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rcronk said:
On the second to last item, you say "The papyri is found", referring to the fragments spoken of in your quote above. I'd like to add some detail to that by saying that about 13% of the papyri was found. (John Gee, "The Ancient Owners of the Joseph Smith Papyri" and "The Disciple As Witness: Essays on Latter-Day Saint History and Doctrine in Honor of Richard Lloyd Anderson", edited by Richard Lloyd Anderson, Stephen D. Ricks, Donald W. Parry, and Andrew H. Hedges)

It is correct that the papyri that was found did not contain the book of Abraham but funerary texts - which is expected. However, since about 87% of the papyri was not found, the book of Abraham could have come from this missing 87%.
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Surely the 13% should match something that Smith translated? Or was he not curious enough to read all of it?
 
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Aha! My minor mystery is solved! I accidently responded to the moderated thread instead of this one. Presumably my posts will show up here shortly.

Sorry about the inconvenience, mods.
 
Since funerary texts have nothing to do with Abraham, I wouldn't expect any of the 13% to match what was translated.
 
rcronk said:
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It is correct that the papyri that was found did not contain the book of Abraham but funerary texts - which is expected. However, since about 87% of the papyri was not found, the book of Abraham could have come from this missing 87%.
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What reason do you have to believe that Abraham could write in Egyptian hieroglyphics?
 
There is a wide leap of faith between not being able to disprove something and accepting something as true. We can't disprove the existence of Zeus can we... or that he had a message of the missing 87%?. Shouldn't something somewhere mesh with the evidence or facts? What would be enough to convince a believer that it just wasn't true? Anything? All because he prayed and had a "feeling" of "inner knowingness"?
 
Diogenes - I don't remember saying I believed that.

articulett - I don't think we should say "we've found 13% in fragments dealing with a different subject, it doesn't match the book of Abraham, therefore Smith's a false prophet." That's sloppy. It goes both ways. There is evidence, however, that the translations of facsimiles actually match what egyptologists understand about them among other things.

both - If you want to, you could go look around www.fairlds.org and see what they've found regarding the questions you have.
 
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