Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

[articulett]

Wow. That was the most offensive post I've seen yet. It's tragic when someone has to kick in someone else's teeth like that. That was just sad. ETA: This is referring to the relief society post.

edited to ratchet it down a notch.

I'm sorry I offended you--what in particular did you find offensive?

 

[RandFan]

I would just like to say that I've found rcronk to be fair and and more than willing to acknowledge arguments and appologize when others felt he had gone over the line.

I understand emotions folks (boy do I ever) so I'm in a glass house here.

Perhaps we could ratchet it down a notch.

 

[rcronk]

pixel42 - don't put words into my mouth. I have listed the handful of specific things I've prayed about and received answers to including the existence of God, that christ is the son of God, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Neither I nor anyone I know has asked if every single detail of everything in the LDS church is true.RandFan - Thanks. I didn't get to see the un-racheted post, dang! articulett - The part of your post I found offensive was the part where you implied that Mormon women (or any woman who raises children for that matter) didn't have a good enough brain in their head to go do something important in their lives. Raising a child is the most important thing a person (of either gender) could do - these children are our future. I will not sit by silently as you insult these women and call them brainless. I'm not emotional or mad though, I'm just standing up against insult, that's all.

 

[Elind]

But you must surely at least acknowledge the principle that, as you know, there are people who think your beliefs are a fantasy or worse, and as Dawkins suggests, to indoctrinate small children in such without instead teaching them to think for themselves and perhaps decide by 21 if they want to join or not, is a form of child abuse. (apologies for run on sentence).

Simply the "mother" part I'm sure was not insulted.

 

[rcronk]

That's assuming that it's false. Most of what I teach my children is from my own life experiences anyway.

 

[articulett]

I agree about raising a child. But the world has plenty of children--nobody needs to keep pumping them out... and they become a self made job of the woman producing them... the children must have resources and care... and when the parents can't, society does. It's to nobody but the Mormon Church's best interest to produce tons more Mormons.

When asked later in life, most women say they would have had fewer or even no children if they had to do it again. This isn't because they don't love their children-- I think most mothers would give up their live for their children--but because their talents and gifts and time and energy were spent of burdens they spawned. Most kids grow up to be about as grateful and helpful to their parents as their parents are to their own parents. The nurturers must learn to nurture themselves or no-one does.

The Mormon church needs more Mormons so the current men can rise in power and keep the hierarchy going. The rest of the world does not. Your "inner knowingness" isn't useful or true for us. This is true for all religions that encourage the "go forth and multiply" meme. How do you think Muslims and Catholics became so huge? And I assure you, that most Muslims are as confident as you that Mohommuded was a prophet and Joseph Smith was a joke. The hijackers of 9-11 were just as certain of their truth (if not moreso) than you. And they and their families are said to have a special place in heaven for their sacrifice. Their family members get dream messages from the dead assuring them this is so. Don't you see that what you think of their religion and prophets and true scripture is the same as they think of yours? Don't you see that their "go forth and multiply" meme is as much as a burden to the rest of the world as yours?

I know too many Mormon and Catholic women who thought "God wouldn't give them more than they could handle"-- who "went forth and multiplied" which made this life an extreme struggle.... you can't even seem to relate to women... to see how much you would not want this kind of life even if you were told that you would live happily ever after for doing it. These women have faith in the plan-- and we never know if they get any of their supposed rewards or angel wings or whatever. We just see them exhausted and worn out here on earth making more babies so the "hive" can prosper-- they even think their "value" depends on how many they can have. And when you have a bunch of kids-- you can't leave... you can't even change your mind... you are forced to make yourself believe it's true whether you are Muslim or FLDS or Catholic or Andrea Yates or Mormon. Because you can't unlove your kids. You can't stop feeling that you wish you could take on their every suffering-- If you believe that your child can suffer for eternity--then their eternity becomes your responsibility too-- what mother could bear the thought of bringing a kid in the world that would suffer for eternity-- and so it becomes an endless process of wiping noses and worrying and changing diapers, and exhaustian, and tiny rewards, and poverty, and hope that the next life is little more restful than this one.

And it's all based on sick and stupid sexist stories... "original sin"? God being omniscient would know the eventual eternal outcome anyhow, wouldn't he? If god is responsible for making sure people have faith and are born into the right one or stumble across the "true" prophet or scripture-- why would it be such a jumbled mess? Why are all his supposed signs indistinguishable from talking in tongues? Why not do something real and clear and impressive?

And why does science make so much more sense? In evolution, females are much more the directors of evolution-- they are the mate choosers and drive the physical changes of the next generation because those who choose the best mates have the best chance of having descendants. They aren't the helper half. They are less expendable than the men--one of which can repopulate a species all by himself.

Mormon men have this weird oppressive pedestal that they put women and motherhood on. They have to sell the idea to women... and yet they know they'd never want to have god mandate such a tedious role for them. And women are told that god demands this humility of them-- that, like faith, it's a gift... and if they can't hack it, there must be something wrong with them. If they don't get the burning bosom it must be them. Mormons aren't alone. All successful religions have this meme. How else can you ensure the growth of the heirarchy? If women aren't spawning a lot, then the group has to proselytize all the more to stay in business.

 

[rcronk]

articulett - was that an apology for calling women who raise children brainless?

 

[articulett]

articulett - was that an apology for calling women who raise children brainless?

I didn't call women who raise children brainless. I raised children-- my own others. That was your extrapolation and it was as manipulative as calling war protesters unpatriotic.

Your religion like others abuse the trust of those who try desperately to live righteous lives for promises that are never verified... and when they fail, they blame themselves on not the meme inflicted on them from birth. You cannot hear or see a point of view outside your brainwashing and it causes members of your own belief system trying desperately hard to "feel" the truth or do what "god" wants to have very difficult lives.

Don't confuse my not believing your propaganda with my insulting those who have had it inflicted upon them against their will. Listen, I don't think North Koreans are brainless because they think America is the cause of their shortages, etc.-- I think they have only been exposed to one view just as Mormon women often have-- and when it doesn't work as advertised, they think something is wrong with them rather than the indoctrination they've gotten since birth.

It's the same for Andrea Yates, Catholic women, Muslim women, and Orthodox Jews... the same for polygamous clans and harems. They do the best they can with bizarre rules and warnings about eve or pandora's box and then blame themselves when things don't go well or kids mess up or they hate their lives. Trusting honest people are hurt by the dogmas they have so much faith in-- the ones they are told are the key to their salvation. And society pays for adding more and more children of dogma to the world. This world cannot sustain such population growth... it hurts us all. And we cannot afford more people thinking that this life doesn't matter, because the real one comes afterwards and lasts forever. We need the voices and brains of women and minorities and atheists and scientists solving the problems in the world-- not forever raising problems "given to them by god" with the hopes that such kids will one day give back and not inflict their dogmatic memes and genes on the rest of humanity.

Women are hardly brainless-- they are just trusting and tend to mistake the confidence and conviction of men like yourself for "truth" because they seldom have such confidence themselves and to doubt or dissent can be dangerous for them and the children they'd give their lives for. If the men they love tell them that there's an invisible guy in the sky who wants them to do X and doesn't want them to do Y-- they tend to comply just in case it might be true. We're talking about a very punishing diety, afterall,-- a very masculine one who seems to favor men and endorse murder and allegiance above cooperation, peacekeeping, and evidence. A god that punishes doubt and dissent and treats women as if they are not actual "people".

It works fine for those who are of that ilk... but just as homosexual men tend to develop self loathing if they are in a church that feels it's a choice or an "abomination"-- women who have talents other than domestic skills often feel "unworthy", and their actual talents never get to be appreciated by society at large when the church has their roles already carved out for them. And though children allow you to love in a way you cannot imagine-- they are also not thankful for being born or the daily sacrifices of the people who do the invisible unappreciated work of raising them. I speak as someone who has raised my own... and often the men of children I dated after my husband passed away. It's a thankless job. I'd do it again for my own, but I'm always glad I don't have any more.

 

[articulett]

I'm done ratcheting down. I don't think women who raise children are brainless... I think the one who raises them with you is brainwashed. And I am beginning to think you are brainless. You can only hear words that fit the ego maniacal belief that you think got put in your bosom. Your twisting of my words is so dishonest... but so is your religion and your apologetics. I can't be nice anymore. I think you are a sexist, bigoted, apologist that is indistinguishable from the sexist bigoted apologists of other religions and regimes. I think Mormonism is a loyalist cult just like North Korea-- they're religion is very recent too you know-- and Kim Jong Il isn't only a prophet-- but he was born of a god. That beat Joe Smith in the myth department-- and your invisible savior. It still doesn't make it true. And I don't think the people of North Korea are brainless either. Just brainwashed, like you.

 

[articulett]

BTW, as a woman who has raised children, I consider myself far more brainy than you, and I suspect any objective test on the matter would illustrate the same. I suspect the women in your life may be far brainier than you too, but they are too busy propping up your ego for you to notice they have opinions and thoughts and mental prowess that you cannot begin to fathom.

And, yes, compliant Mormon women remind me of Stepford Wives. Mormonism seems very much a system to produce such Stepford wives.

It's not the only religion that does so-- and not all Mormon women seem Stepford Wife-ish-- but the analogy is striking for one intimately involved with the system and peeking at it from many angles (I have friends who grew up to become Mormon women). It's an opinion-- but I suspect it's an opinion many outsiders share... and it's based on many an observation and anecdote on my part.

Clearly, you must believe and get others to buy into the paradigm for you to reap the rewards and respect of the hierarchy... and the imagined special rewards in the next life where you are super duper special for being so "righteous". You feel all good and moral without actually doing anything good and moral-- while twisting my words, oppressing women, and spreading racist and religionist bigotry. You have no motive for examining how your delusions affect others and how the spin you tell yourself leads to human suffering. You just dismiss the suffering as "part of god's plan".

 

[rcronk]

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. You said, "it just sounds so sucky for a woman with a brain and no interest in "homemaking" and "domestic skills"" and that really sounded to me like you were bashing women who were raising children and saying that they don't "have a brain". Can you see where someone might read it that way? I also support your right to express your hate all over me like you just did but I don't think I deserve it. You don't know me, and I've tried to be civil with you and will continue to do so regardless of your actions.

 

[articulett]

If I misunderstood you, I apologize. You said, "it just sounds so sucky for a woman with a brain and no interest in "homemaking" and "domestic skills"" and that really sounded to me like you were bashing women who were raising children and saying that they don't "have a brain". Can you see where someone might read it that way? I also support your right to express your hate all over me like you just did but I don't think I deserve it. You don't know me, and I've tried to be civil with you and will continue to do so regardless of your actions.

I don't hate you... I think you've been infected with dogma and you come across as sexist and arrogant because of it. And yes, I would suck as a Mormon woman-- I hate sewing and domestic kinds of chores... but fortunately, I was not around people who judged me based on such skills-- but rather who nourished my intelligence and reveled in my other talents, skills, and assets. I feel bad for women like me born into Mormonism just as I feel bad for homosexuals born into Mormonism... it seems a recipe for self loathing.

I didn't express hatred-- it's fear. The world is full of men like you who are so sure they have the truth that they can't hear anybody else. And women and children don't have a choice so much about what they believe or must at least pretend to believe-- their survival and the survival of their offspring often depends on them trusting and supporting the paradigm they were born into. Your self confidence in your faith and the easy way you pretend it's a privilege for women to serve god in a way few men would be willing to do makes me feel lucky not to have been exposed to people like you when I was naive and trusting and trying to figure things out. It also makes me feel sorry for women inflicted with this meme who might not fit the paradigm-- who could add so much to the world outside this stultifying paradigm.

I don't hate you any more than I hate North Koreans-- I just think it's so sad the way masses of trusting people can be manipulated. I think it's wrong. My heroes are those like Randfan and Randi who work to disseminate the truth and teach others how readily they can be fooled. They never think of themselves as heroes, but the ones I find manipulative always seem to think of themselves that way-- Osama Bin Laden included. Tom Cruise. Jerry Falwell. Fred Phelps. Deepak Chopra. Sylvia Browne. The Pope. The Mormon Prophet. So damn certain. So full of crap. Never admitting to error--having their apologetic minions do their dirty work for unverifiable everlasting rewards and to avoid unverifiable lasting punishment from some invisible someone or other.

Invisible gods and useless gurus get the glory when the real people doing the real work including the women behind the men in your male ego glorifying church and those who debunk the nuttiness and scientists and health care workers and mere mortals get lip service and scorn. I don't "hate" anything. But this makes me very, very sad. And, it just seems so unfixable when so many men like yourself are so damn sure of their delusions.

 

[articulett]

And no-- I don't understand how you could extrapolate that I was calling women who raise children brainless-- you have a very strong confirmation bias that I could not forsee. But I cannot imagine how people could call war protesters unpatriotic either. And yet, loyalty cults thrive on this demonization of dissent.

Anything I say will be immediately twisted to fit your paradigm or disregarded as you have been brainwashed to do.

 

[articulett]

That's assuming that it's false. Most of what I teach my children is from my own life experiences anyway.

Sure, and if the hijackers are really enjoying virgins and have ensured a special place for their family's in the afterlife, then those who indoctrinate children with the Quo'ran are doing good. Tis a pity that we can't test faith based notions disguised as truths, eh?

 

[rcronk]

Thanks for clarifying. From my own experience growing up Mormon, I have not seen at all what you're describing. If the Mormon church and its men and women members were as you are explaining them, I would think and act as you are too. I don't know what your background is or where you're getting your evidence for this, but in my experience it is not true at all. I'm sure there are jerks, just as there are anywhere you look, regardless of belief or lack thereof. But for the vast majority of Mormons I have encountered in Utah, Washington D.C., Maryland, Washington state, California, Arizona, Idaho, Nevada, and Chile, your descriptions are not valid at all. I understand your point about evil people leading, opressing, etc. in the name of God. They are disgusting. I agree with you. I just think that to use them as the example of a God fearing people is too easy a strawman to knock down.

 

[bokonon]

I've found him, and the specific process hasn't failed me. Or my wife. Or my family. Or many of my friends across the world. So the question is - do you believe any of us? That God does answer prayers of a specific nature?

I'm not a Mormon, so please forgive my ignorance. What sort of answers, and what sorts of knowledge do you believe are available to you? Is it pretty much limited to "LDS is the true church," or will the all-knowing creator of the universe also reveal new scientific principles? Can you foretell the future? Find weapons of mass destruction? Learn the secret formula for Coca Cola, or the Colonel's 11 secret herbs and spices?

 

[rcronk]

According to the Book of Mormon in Moroni 10:3-5, by the power of the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. I haven't figured out the Coca Cola formula yet though.

 

[articulett]

I don't think the oppressed know they're oppressed or that things aren't supposed to be that way. Do the deluded every figure out they're deludeed. It's like anosognosia. Would a Stepford wife see herself as a Stepford wife? The Mormon church seems to wrap up a lot of ugliness in prettily decorated packages and then never open them to look inside from what I can tell. I stayed with a Mormon friend and the whole weekend was about fixing things up on the "outside" making her kids and her home look good-- but not getting to know that kid or reconnecting-- it was like she was trying to make everything look like it was going great-- but she lost the ability to be the funny and depthful person I once knew her to be. It seemed like she was in a neighborly self induced competition for who could look like the most righteous Mormon with the best family who was the most Mormony. She lived in Orem I think... and the whole street names were directions of a grid and how far it was from the temple (e.g. 1345 East-- 4545 South) That was their address... it was THAT "sterile"... and Stepfordish to me. It seemed like it was more important to have things look to be in order then to actually have order or peace or laughter or a rich life. I felt sad and creeped out, but I'm sure she didn't feel that. She was nice and everything-- just bland and banal and not the person I once knew-- she probably felt sorry for me because I didn't have her "truth" and I felt inner glee that I escaped the madness.

I had a relative who warned me not to put ribbons around my neck at my babyshower because then the baby could choke on it's umbilical cord. Now, that's ridiculous... it would have been horrifyingly so HAD my child choked on it's umbilical cord-- and I blamed myself. I love my relatives. I know they said that to protect me-- but I just feel sad that they feel that way, and I hope that they don't pass that superstition on in ways that might actually harm people. Every mother feels responsible for everything wrong with her baby even when it really had nothing to do with anythings she could control. I adore my relatives... I keep my non-belief to myself for the most part. I don't find their beliefs harmless. I feel the same way about my distant friend and the unrecognizable Stepford wife she has become. Her husband is nice, but he can't be the special ma- god to me that he is to her-- he's just a guy who got born into a religion that makes his life pretty damn good and my friends less so (from my perspective). It's not bad experiences... it's the experiences you would have if you observed North Korean thinking probably.

 

[bokonon]

According to the Book of Mormon in Moroni 10:3-5, by the power of the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. I haven't figured out the Coca Cola formula yet though.

So then probably the Book of Mormon in Moroni 10:3-5 is not true. If it was, the power of the Holy Ghost could reveal whether or not it is true that the number 42 will be among the winning numbers in next week's lottery. If it takes a day for the truth of each proposition to be revealed, and there are 60 candidate numbers, praying (or whatever the process is) for the truth 3 months from now would yield a sure thing, by a simple process of elimination. If it takes longer than a day, simply push the date in question forward accordingly.

 

[RandFan]

I don't think the oppressed know they're oppressed or that things aren't supposed to be that way. Do the deluded every figure out they're deluded. It's like anosognosia.

Ramachandran does a lot of work in this area. It's what I tried to impart to rcronk. I have so many examples of this. I think this is the most profound truth that I've ever learned and it is perhaps the greatest single discovery of humans. The idea that we could be deluded and incapable of accepting our delusion was discovered by those wonderful ancient Greeks.

If you were deluded and your delusion kept you from seeing your delusion, how would you know?

How can we get people who believe that their suicide will earn them a reward in heaven to understand that this is just a delusion?

I can only derive confidence from doubt. It at first seems counter intuitive but it is the only rational position. Skepticism.

If there is a god I think he would want people to live a good life and use their brain to think critically and not dogmatically. If I were a political leader and I wanted to hold on to my power I would want people to believe that I spoke to god and that my rules were god's rules.