Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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Reputable is questionof definition. Beside one anti fraud device which they (sold?gave?) to a spin off fraudhalt, the rest is a serie of failed adventure. But that is a derail.


I said "reputable", I didn't say "good" or "successful" :D

The point being, they were trying to do real engineering, but after many years of failing to succeed, they ended up promoting Free Energy devices. And ended up having people actually talking about them, and investing money in them, which hadn't happened before. Did they deliberately sell out, or did they just latch onto a weird effect in desperation? At the start, who knows. But eventually the continued failure has to suggest to them that they screwed up, and yet, they continued to promote it.




The way I see it , I'll be telling "I told you so" to this empty thread jsut like I posted "I told you so" to empty dennis klein threads, empty BLP threads, empty Steorn thread. After a while "proponent" usually switch to another scam and never come back to admit "yeah you were right".


That's how I'm betting.
 
Dancing David

I am not trying to show the Rossie efecct is a fraud. I am saying that it is not demonstrated.

You have made a serious error, I am not trying to debunk the Rossi claim. I have asked for evidence that it is actual and accurate. If someone said that they had a combustion engine or a steam turbine system that was able of say converting 90% of the heat produced into mechanical energy, I would ask similar questions. I am not debunking. I am asking for accurate measurement and reduction of error.

The simple truth is that the device is either a fraud or produces energy from a non-chemical source. There is no possibility that the observations result from error because the effect is so large(especially in the 18 hour high flow rate test). Increasing the accuracy of the calorimetry will not change these black and white possibilities.


If the confidence, and my confidence in the measures used was in the high range, I would not be saying “There is a 25% chance this is real”, I would be saying “There is an 85% chance that the measured effect is real”, now the actual percentage of ‘real’ would be related to the accuracy and error levels.

My measure of confidence is determined by a lack of information. If the published data had been gathered by me my confidence would be much higher. We don't know if there were control experiments done, how thoroughly the apparatus was examined etc. My estimate of 25% probability is based on my confidence that the observers were well trained scientists and conducted themselves accordingly. If the demonstrations had been conducted by some guy off the street my confidence would be much less.

My confidence in the legitimacy of this device is also increased by the fact that all the private investment in the technology was generated before the public announcement. Having dealt with wealthy investors and their hired consultants before (justifying your technology to a steely eyed former NASA/IBM/Bell Labs scientists can be a harrowing experience), they generally do very good due diligence. That is usually why investors are rich in the first place. The rossi device is so incredibly easy to verify that I have trouble imagining that a private investor wouldn't take the trouble to do so.

Of course I may be wrong. In fact, in my own estimation I am probably wrong.

I urge all posters here to take a measured approach to this topic and strictly apply the practice of skeptical reasoning and argument to the information available. It pains me to see such sloppy thinking as has been demonstrated here on the forum of the worlds premier skeptical society with regards to what, if true, would be the greatest invention ever made by humanity. It is not my desire to convince you that the rossi device is real that incited me to begin contributing to this thread (I am skeptical of it myself) but the poor quality of the reasoning displayed that drew my comments.
 
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Whatroughbeast

Let's assume 2 hours to test a potential catalyst. After all, you have to load the treated nickel, button up the hydrogen line, connect the initiating heater (connected, of course, directly to the nickel), close up the coolant system, verify the instrumentation, pressurize the hydrogen, activate the heater, monitor the coolant flow, and wait to see what happens. Whether the compound works or not, you then have to reverse the whole procedure, and then you try again. And none of this addresses the time and effort required to treat the nickel samples with each compound in the first place.
This is prime example of a false premise, much like your earlier assertion about the geometry of the resistive heating elements.

WHAAAT?

After all I went through to corner your weasely ways about the heaters, you've now gone back to your original position?. You do remember your last post on the subject, right?

dude .. seriously you need to let this go... you are wrong about this. I will admit that your original argument would be much less foolish if the auxiliary heater was never energized (lol).

It seemed clear that you had no effective response but weren't willing to admit it, and I figured I'd be a nice guy and give you a break, and let the matter drop. Hah. So let me repeat the questions which preceded your "dude" moment.

So now will you do the following (in the Swedish Report)?

1) Quote the statement which establishes that the auxiliary heater is directly connected to the reactor capsule. Note that the statement "At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control." does not establish this, unless you appeal "to the supremacy of the patents". And of course you would never, ever, do that. And I know that because you said so. I believe the phrase is "is without merit".

2) quote the specifications for the auxiliary heater,

3) quote the statement which refers to observing the application of power to the auxiliary heater rather than the main heater,

4) quote the statement which establishes the power level applied to the auxiliary heater.

Answer the questions or admit that you were wrong.

But let's return to your original statement.

This is prime example of a false premise,

No. As a researcher, you ought to recognize this as a starting point for a useful rough calculation. It's only a false premise if it's, you know, false. I eagerly await your demonstration that it is, in fact, untrue.


As a professional research scientist I get paid to devise ways of testing 10000 variations on a material combination without building 10000 prototypes. In the case of this device all Rossi would have to do is determine an appropriate variable to measure (e.g. nanoparticle dimension, hydrogen loading etc.) and then devise a quick way of measuring that variable. Rossi could then choose the most promising material and use that to refine his prototypes. While interesting, your calculation is not a good example of Rossi being inconsistent.

No, you've once again tried to twist a statement. In my original statement, I only assumed one prototype, which has to be charged with a nickel/catalyst sample, then characterized. The input variables are hydrogen pressure and sample temperature, and the only output variable is power. But here's the thing - how do you propose to test different catalysts without loading and unloading the apparatus? By the nature of the test, the specimens have to be loaded into a pressurized chamber, and trust me on this: dealing with a test chamber pressurized with hydrogen is not done quickly or casually. The safety issues are major.

Yes, "all Rossi would have to do", and "Rossi could". And your evidence that "Rossi did" is .............. ?

And the whole issue of catalyst testing brings up the detail which first made me suspicious of Rossi. It is so major an omission that at first I thought it must be a mistake, but it turns out it isn't.

Go look at the pictures of the 4 E-cats in the Swedish Report. Is there anything missing which jumps out at you? No? Is there anything missing from the description of the test? No? Well try this.

Where is the thermocouple which measures the reactor capsule temperature?

No thermocouple? Why in God's name not? It would provide the most direct sort of indication that the reactor was, in fact, reacting. It would be the most useful measure of the startup behavior imaginable. It would allow fast startup by allowing the system to start with no coolant flow. It is such a fundamental piece of instrumentation that its absence can only be considered, in my opinion, damning.

Rossi has demonstrated a tendency to make contradictory statements and has a history of questionable behavior.

The difference between us is that I would paraphrase the above as: Rossi has demonstrated that he is a habitual liar who can't even be bothered to keep his lies straight. But each to his own.

Levi, Focardi, the swedes, Leonardo Technologies, etc. do not. ?

And when it comes to Focardi and LTI, Rossi has been contradicting them. Why is it that you accept his word over theirs?

Rossi has been demonstrating his devices since 2008 according to his US partner Ampenergo. Ampenergo is run by experienced energy contractors with DOE credentials and a multi-million dollar energy consulting business. Are you saying that these people were taken in so easily that they failed to account for the superficial inconsistencies and questions that even a child could come up with, like controlling the input power?

Sigh. Crawdaddy, have you ever dealt with a con man? One with real charisma? For that matter, have you read about Petrol Dragon?

The revelation that Rossi has credible partners doesn't mitigate your misgiving even slightly?

Yes, actually, it does. Slightly. The problem is that I keep discovering new contradictions, new inconsistencies, and new signs of buncombe. And I find myself unable to discard them.

My estimate of 25% probability of legitimacy is heavily weighted by the fact that Rossi lacks credibility. If he had good credentials my estimate would be significantly higher. If Rossi was a saint, what would you think about this device then?

As a working hypothesis? Mental illness. I would be less inclined to bring up all of the issues I do. Some years ago, in IASFM, I read a remark from Isaac Asimov in which he responded inappropriately to a question from a reader. I resisted the temptation to write him, twitting him for not remembering a column he wrote which had answered the very same question. Six months later he was dead, and his failure of memory was clearly linked to his declining condition. I've always been glad I didn't write the letter.
 
No. As a researcher, you ought to recognize this as a starting point for a useful rough calculation. It's only a false premise if it's, you know, false. I eagerly await your demonstration that it is, in fact, untrue.

An argument from a false premise or assumption is justifying an argument using a flawed statement.

If you say rossi is lying because he couldn't possibly test all his material combinations it would take too long!

This flawed by a false premise or assumption because your premise is that it takes a long time to test material combinations, which is false unless you constrain the argument to testing the combinations by adding them to a single reactor. It is absurd to imagine a person would constrain themselves in that way, therefore your argument about rossi's credibility is based on a false premise.

Your argument about the reactor being a fraud because the external resistive heater would be inadequate is also flawed due to a false premise because a second heater exists! Your argument is only convincing if there is just one heater! The idea that it was never turned on because it's not written in the report is a further logical fallacy, an argument from ignorance. When one observes that in the repeat test the video shows that both channels were energized, one's credulity must extend to the notion that in the first test the heater was off (an obvious fraud!) and in the second one the heater was on (a less obvious fraud?).

Even a child would notice the inherent flaw in your proposed configuration, let alone a professor of experimental physics.

In summary the fact that a second heater exists makes your claim that the reactor is a fraud because the heat is externally applied an argument from a false premise.

I hope that someone else here could back me up on this because explaining this over and over is tiresome.
 
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catsmate1

Your argument is that Leonardo Technologies is a reputable company and that shows what a fraud Rossi is. Yevgen Barsukov posted a comment implying that the company Ampenergo, a spin off of Leonardo Technologies run by LT executives, that has agreed to market the e-cat in the Americas is run by fraudsters.

What comment are you referring too? You might have misunderstood
something, or somebody misquoted me.

I did comment about the Danish article that says that Rossi made a deal
with american company and they are paying money to him.
I don't have to imply anything, I quoted the words of the head of the company from the article.
This contradicts Rossi's statement that he is using _only his own money_
for this development and shows that he is already making money from
outside investors (which gives one possible motivation to make
fake demonstrations).

I did not say anything about the US company itself being involved
in the fraud. They might just be a victim in this case, or they hope
to get some governmental contract to "investigate" the technology (regardless if it is fraud or not), similar to DOD contracts given to third party to look at Rossi's so called "20% efficient" thermoelectrics (which turned out to be untrue, if you remember earlier discussion).

Regards,
Yevgen
 
Dancing David



The simple truth is that the device is either a fraud or produces energy from a non-chemical source. There is no possibility that the observations result from error because the effect is so large(especially in the 18 hour high flow rate test). Increasing the accuracy of the calorimetry will not change these black and white possibilities.
Except for one little thing, the measure of electrical energy in is poor and the measure of heat out put is also poor.

That is black and white.

They did not demonstrate an effect. Improved measures of both are essential, you can not just say they are not.
My measure of confidence is determined by a lack of information. If the published data had been gathered by me my confidence would be much higher. We don't know if there were control experiments done, how thoroughly the apparatus was examined etc.
That is un-needed, with adequate measures then you don't have to worry, except for the charging cheical battery effect.\
My estimate of 25% probability is based on my confidence that the observers were well trained scientists and conducted themselves accordingly.
Um without adequate measures it doesn't matter who is watching, poor measures produce poor results.
If the demonstrations had been conducted by some guy off the street my confidence would be much less.

My confidence in the legitimacy of this device is also increased by the fact that all the private investment in the technology was generated before the public announcement. Having dealt with wealthy investors and their hired consultants before (justifying your technology to a steely eyed former NASA/IBM/Bell Labs scientists can be a harrowing experience), they generally do very good due diligence.
Not always, why did that Mars probe crash?
That is usually why investors are rich in the first place. The rossi device is so incredibly easy to verify that I have trouble imagining that a private investor wouldn't take the trouble to do so.

Of course I may be wrong. In fact, in my own estimation I am probably wrong.

I urge all posters here to take a measured approach to this topic and strictly apply the practice of skeptical reasoning and argument to the information available.
And the information is of such poor quality that all can be said is:

there is no demonstrated effect.
It pains me to see such sloppy thinking as has been demonstrated here on the forum of the worlds premier skeptical society with regards to what, if true, would be the greatest invention ever made by humanity.
Nice rhetoric, this is not a rhetorical competition however.
It is not my desire to convince you that the rossi device is real that incited me to begin contributing to this thread (I am skeptical of it myself) but the poor quality of the reasoning displayed that drew my comments.

Not true, many of the posters discussed the fact that it CAN NOT be a nuclear process under current models of binding energies, they also discuss how the alleged nuclear effect would produce radiation.

That is not poor reasoning in the least. These are measured effects, tehse are consistent with all known measurements.
But without an accurate measure of electrical energy and heat output there is no effect whatsoever,

So I would not say that it produces energy, that is exactly what has not been demonstrated. There is an allegation of extra energy output compared to energy in, but guess what is unsubstantiated at this point?

As I stated before had they used adequate measures in the first place we would not be discussing this, we would all be saying "Wow, how did they do that?"
That is un-needed, with adequate measures then you don't have to worry, except for the charging chemical battery effect.
My estimate of 25% probability is based on my confidence that the observers were well trained scientists and conducted themselves accordingly.
Um without adequate measures it doesn't matter who is watching, poor measures produce poor results.
If the demonstrations had been conducted by some guy off the street my confidence would be much less.

My confidence in the legitimacy of this device is also increased by the fact that all the private investment in the technology was generated before the public announcement. Having dealt with wealthy investors and their hired consultants before (justifying your technology to a steely eyed former NASA/IBM/Bell Labs scientists can be a harrowing experience), they generally do very good due diligence.
Not always, why did that Mars probe crash?
That is usually why investors are rich in the first place. The rossi device is so incredibly easy to verify that I have trouble imagining that a private investor wouldn't take the trouble to do so.

Of course I may be wrong. In fact, in my own estimation I am probably wrong.

I urge all posters here to take a measured approach to this topic and strictly apply the practice of skeptical reasoning and argument to the information available.
And the information is of such poor quality that all can be said is:

there is no demonstrated effect.
It pains me to see such sloppy thinking as has been demonstrated here on the forum of the worlds premier skeptical society with regards to what, if true, would be the greatest invention ever made by humanity.
Nice rhetoric, this is not a rhetorical competition however.
It is not my desire to convince you that the rossi device is real that incited me to begin contributing to this thread (I am skeptical of it myself) but the poor quality of the reasoning displayed that drew my comments.

Not true, many of the posters discussed the fact that it CAN NOT be a nuclear process under current models of binding energies, they also discuss how the alleged nuclear effect would produce radiation.

That is not poor reasoning in the least. These are measured effects, tehse are consistent with all known measurements.
But without an accurate measure of electrical energy and heat output there is no effect whatsoever,

So I would not say that it produces energy, that is exactly what has not been demonstrated. There is an allegation of extra energy output compared to energy in, but guess what is unsubstantiated at this point?

As I stated before had they used adequate measures in the first place we would not be discussing this, we would all be saying "Wow, how did they do that?"
 
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Your argument about the reactor being a fraud because the external resistive heater would be inadequate is also flawed due to a false premise because a second heater exists! Your argument is only convincing if there is just one heater! The idea that it was never turned on because it's not written in the report is a further logical fallacy, an argument from ignorance. When one observes that in the repeat test the video shows that both channels were energized, one's credulity must extend to the notion that in the first test the heater was off (an obvious fraud!) and in the second one the heater was on (a less obvious fraud?).

Sigh. Crawdaddy, you brought up all this before, but were never able to back it up. It's boring to go over this again, but I'm not in a mood to let you get away with it.

The idea that it was never turned on because it's not written in the report is a further logical fallacy, an argument from ignorance.

No, it is a perfectly reasonable inference, given the statements I've already provided. And I quote:

lol yourself. I notice that you have not found the quotes I asked for for the other 3 points.

And on this point, well, I suggest you consult the Swedish Report. If you are diligent, you will find the following quotes:

"Note that on the main heating resistor which is positioned around the copper tube and made of stainless steel (Figure 3) you can read the dimensions and nominal power (50mm diameter and 300W)."

"The electric heater was switched on at 10:25, and the meter reading was 1.5 amperes corresponding to 330 watts for the heating including the power for the instrumentation, about 30 watts. The electric heater thus provides a power of 300 watts to the nickel-hydrogen mixture. This corresponds also to the nominal power of the resistor."

You will also notice that "The electric heater" is singular. Not plural.

And, I might add, singular in two places.

Concluding that only one heater (the external one) was turned on is not a logical fallacy, no matter what your obviously active fantasy life tells you.

I confess that I have lost the link to the later experiment's video. Please provide it and we'll have another look.

However, I did address the question earlier.

Further if you look at the video from the most recent demonstration conducted by the swedish group (of the same devices used in the first test) you will see that the PID controller clearly has two channels in operation.


Umm, maybe it has something to do with the fact that there is no evidence that there is actually any power applied to the auxiliary heater, for one.

This would have been an excellent place to claim that there really is evidence that the aux heater gets power, but you inexplicably passed it up. It's amazing how often that happens.

In summary the fact that a second heater exists makes your claim that the reactor is a fraud because the heat is externally applied an argument from a false premise.

I hope that someone else here could back me up on this because explaining this over and over is tiresome.

Boy howdy, you got that right. I mean about tiresome. The existence of a second heater only leads your point if

a) it is connected directly to the reactor capsule, and
b) power which was stated to be applied to the main heater was instead applied to the second heater.

Despite repeated direct requests for direct evidence to confirm either of these conditions, you have never managed it. You ignore the requirements of your arguments, and then get sniffy because I haven't bowed to your superior logic.

Or do you think that putting exclamation points after your assertions makes them magically true?
 
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The idea that it was never turned on because it's not written in the report is a further logical fallacy, an argument from ignorance.

Dude, seriously? If they did things in the test that aren't included in the report, then the entire thing is worthless and we may as well all stop arguing now because we simply have no idea what they actually did or measured. The only way to have any kind of sensible discussion is to assume that their reports are not flat out lies, and that means not imagining they must have done things that aren't stated just because it would happen to support your fantasies.
 
I hope that someone else here could back me up on this because explaining this over and over is tiresome.

Crawdaddy, I do believe you have badly misunderstood the functioning of this forum. People comment on subjects which interest them, and when they think they have something to offer. (And, occasionally, just to stir the pot.)

When it comes to our ongoing disagreement, I suspect that the forum community as a whole is pretty much divided into two camps: those who find it boring and those who find it entertaining.

Those who find us boring, of course, have no motive for commenting.

Those who find us entertaining would never dream of interrupting. Why spoil the fun?
 
Dude, seriously? If they did things in the test that aren't included in the report, then the entire thing is worthless and we may as well all stop arguing now because we simply have no idea what they actually did or measured. The only way to have any kind of sensible discussion is to assume that their reports are not flat out lies, and that means not imagining they must have done things that aren't stated just because it would happen to support your fantasies.

Crawdaddy is starting a new trend in the 'professional scientist' field: writing incomplete test reports and letting the reader fill in the blanks!
 
cuddles

Dude, seriously? If they did things in the test that aren't included in the report, then the entire thing is worthless and we may as well all stop arguing now because we simply have no idea what they actually did or measured. The only way to have any kind of sensible discussion is to assume that their reports are not flat out lies, and that means not imagining they must have done things that aren't stated just because it would happen to support your fantasies.

So you are trying to tell me that it is not making an argument from ignorance to say that the device is a fraud because the heating element not in direct contact with the inner part of the reactor even though a second heating element is described in the report and repeat test videos clearly show that it is energized and the 2nd reactor core heater is described elsewhere?

Do you actually think that whatroughbeast is making a convincing argument?
 
So you are trying to tell me that it is not making an argument from ignorance to say that the device is a fraud because the heating element not in direct contact with the inner part of the reactor even though a second heating element is described in the report and repeat test videos clearly show that it is energized and the 2nd reactor core heater is described elsewhere?

Do you understand what an argument from ignorance is? I don't think it means what you think it does.

Having an issue with a poorly written (intentionally or not) report is not the same as an argument from ignorance. You do not write a test report that forces the reader to make assumptions.
 
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a second heating element is described in the report

No it's not. It is referred to, not described.

And, once again

"2) quote the specifications for the auxiliary heater"

and repeat test videos clearly show that it is energized and the 2nd reactor core heater is described elsewhere?

And, once again,

"I confess that I have lost the link to the later experiment's video. Please provide it and we'll have another look."

Crawdaddy, what do you have against facts, anyways? I try to be scrupulous about providing links to back up my statements, even though this makes my posts unwieldy and probably drives some members of this forum into the "God, this is boring" camp. You, on the other hand, seem to be allergic to any arguing technique other than repeating your claims. Certainly you refuse to answer direct questions, and God forbid you should provide sources for your statements.
 
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cuddles



So you are trying to tell me that it is not making an argument from ignorance
Um, that is not what an argument from ignorance is.

It is an argument that the report as published in lacking in details.
to say that the device is a fraud
And where exactly did Cuddles say that in that post you responded to?

Do you know what a strawman or false dictomy argument are?
 
Um, that is not what an argument from ignorance is.

It is an argument that the report as published in lacking in details.

And where exactly did Cuddles say that in that post you responded to?

Do you know what a strawman or false dictomy argument are?

DD,

Thanks for the support, but I'm the one who has used the heater situation as evidence of fraud, and it is my statements his post refer to.

Actually, what I've said is that the heater issue establishes that the demo'd E-cat does not conform to the patent application. And is therefore evidence of fraud, assuming the patent application is factually correct.

And, if you read my earlier posts, you will see that I do not make the heater claim based solely on missing details. There are clear statements which support the proposition that the heater Crawdaddy loves so much is never turned on, regardless of what it is connected to.
 
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