Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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excaza

Do you understand what an argument from ignorance is? I don't think it means what you think it does.

An argument from ignorance is saying that something is true because we don't know it isn't true.

In this case since the report doesn't state that the auxiliary heater is turned on the other poster is asserting that it was never turned on and therefore the rossi reactor must be a fraud.

This is a textbook argument from ignorance and is not convincing in the slightest. It doesn't meet the standard of skeptical discussion. I expect you as a skeptic to encourage rational discussion.

WhatRoughBeast

"I confess that I have lost the link to the later experiment's video. Please provide it and we'll have another look."

Find it yourself. It might take you 2 minutes. If you aren't even doing the bare minimum of research on this topic why do you keep posting in this thread?
 
If they aren't using accurate measures and data then why pretend that there is an effect?

At one point in the 18 hour test the device was putting close to the same power as a compact car at full throttle. Even the most inaccurate measurement can't misreport that kind of power. The only explanation for these observations is fraud on the part of Rossi and Prof. Levi. Inaccurate measurements and one con man is not enough to explain the results so far. Proof of fraud is required.
 
At one point in the 18 hour test the device was putting close to the same power as a compact car at full throttle.
100 kilowatts? That is impressive.
Even the most inaccurate measurement can't misreport that kind of power. The only explanation for these observations is fraud on the part of Rossi and Prof. Levi.
That sounds more plausible then a device violating a number of "physical laws".
 
Those who find us boring, of course, have no motive for commenting.

Those who find us entertaining would never dream of interrupting. Why spoil the fun?

You forgot the "deja vu" camp, those who comment because they seem to have seen the same scenario roll out for the 17th time.

Also if doing a venn diagram, the deja-vu camp is over lapping in the middle between bored and entertained camp.

My camp : deja-vu entertained.
 
WhatRoughBeast


Find it yourself. It might take you 2 minutes. If you aren't even doing the bare minimum of research on this topic why do you keep posting in this thread?

Now, Crawdaddy,

I am, of course, a lazy individual, but I try to make it work for me. I requested the link from you for 3 reasons:

a) I'm lazy,

b) I figured that you would have the link at your fingertips, and it would make you feel good to provide the conclusive brick in the logical edifice of your triumphant argument, and

c) (and this is the important one) we would then both be arguing from the same data. I can, and have, found a link, but I cannot be sure it references the proper video, and you have a history of criticising my choice of hosts. For instance,

In the PDF report (not the BS blogspam page... why not link directly from rossi's website?) the experimenters write:

So. Just to be certain that you cannot object to my source, would you please provide a link to the video you have repeatedly referenced? I would rather not waste both our times by using data which you do not approve of.

Thanks in advance.
 
excaza



An argument from ignorance is saying that something is true because we don't know it isn't true.

In this case since the report doesn't state that the auxiliary heater is turned on the other poster is asserting that it was never turned on and therefore the rossi reactor must be a fraud.

This is a textbook argument from ignorance and is not convincing in the slightest. It doesn't meet the standard of skeptical discussion. I expect you as a skeptic to encourage rational discussion.

WhatRoughBeast



Find it yourself. It might take you 2 minutes. If you aren't even doing the bare minimum of research on this topic why do you keep posting in this thread?

How about it shows a sloppy way of working.

If the auxiliary heater is used in the tests then they should have reported it.
What else have they not included or conveniently forgotten?
 
At one point in the 18 hour test the device was putting close to the same power as a compact car at full throttle. Even the most inaccurate measurement can't misreport that kind of power.

Of course it can. Let's keep this as simple as possible with a thought experiment - imagine a simple setup with just a water pipe and a heater. The pipe is connected to a tap at one end, the heater heats a section in the middle, and the temperature of the water is measured at the other end. The equation for this will look something along the lines of:
[latex]$$ T_1 = T_0 + \frac{P}{CF} $$[/latex]
Where T is temperature, P is power, C is heat capacity and F is flow rate = V/t. Obviously this is the idealised case with no losses, etc..

So if the final temperature increases, either the starting temperature has increased, the heater power has increased or the flow rate has decreased. For now, lets assume T0 is constant and just look at ΔT. If ΔT doubles, either the heater power has doubled or the flow rate has halved.

That gets the maths part nicely out of the way. Now lets look at the setup in a little more detail. The water pipe is flexible rubber, the heater has a dial that can be set between 0 and 10W, and the flow rate isn't actually measured at all. We start it all running with the heater set to 5W, and measure 1K increase in temperature. Great. Now all this has taken lots of time so we go home for the weekend. The next Monday everything is right where we left it so we carry straight on with the next experiment with the heater now set to 10W. We measure T1 to be 5K higher than T0 was yesterday. Now, what should our conclusion be here:

1) The dial on the heater is not actually accurate, and since we're not actively monitoring the power it could be much higher than we think?
2) The flow rate has reduced, maybe due to the pipe bending or getting squashed?
3) It's been a really hot weekend and T0 is actually 3K higher than last week?
4) Someone sneaked in over the weekend and hid an extra heat source inside the apparatus?
5) Cold fusion?

OK, thought experiment over. Now, consider Rossi's tests in the same way:

1) As already discussed, they didn't monitor heater power at all. If the heater didn't have the specifications expected, or if they deliberately used a different one as part of a con, then the actual power could be massively different for a given voltage. Multi-kilowatt heaters run happily off regular household power supply, so there wouldn't necessarily be any noticeable problem other than the higher than expected power.

2) As already discussed, it's a well known fact that flexible pipes do, in fact, flex, especially when under heating. It's also a well known fact that turbulence and cavitation can greatly reduce flow, especially when there is significant heating and vaporisation. I can entirely block off a normal rubber tube with my bare hand, so a reduction in flow even of 1000 times or more would easily be possible.

3) Probably not a significant factor here, but note that there was no monitoring of the input temperature, they just assumed it must be constant. Not enough to account for the results by itself, but certainly an entirely unnecessary source of error.

4) Again, already discussed at length. There's easily enough space to hide a battery or combustion powered heater inside the apparatus, as well as an additional heater whose use is not adequately described in the reports.

5) Hmm.

So, what do we have? Three obvious sources of error, two of which could easily account for the results by themselves or in combination, and all of which could easily be eliminated by any vaguely competent experimenter. In addition, two very obvious places (2 and 4) where fraud could easily be taking place, although only one (4) absolutely requires fraud. And again, both could easily be eliminated by any competent experimenter.

The only explanation for these observations is fraud on the part of Rossi and Prof. Levi. Inaccurate measurements and one con man is not enough to explain the results so far. Proof of fraud is required.

Wrong. Evidence of fraud is required. We have plenty of that. It is, of course, not 100% conclusive proof, but it's easily good enough for us to say it's probably a fraud, and for virtually no-one in the scientific community to take it the slightest bit seriously.

However, see my points above. It's far from certain that Rossi is a fraud, he could just be incredibly incompetent. However, since all the problems could easily be eliminated by simply getting someone competent involved, fraud seems the most likely explanation. After all, even if he believes he's competent and that his tests actually prove anything, why would he refuse to address all the obvious criticisms in order to prove it to everyone else?
 
Aepervius's expansion of Clark's third law : Any sufficiently incompetent experimentalist is indistinguishable from a fraud. Any sufficiently competent fraud is indistinguishable from a good result.
 
Aepervius's expansion of Clark's third law : Any sufficiently incompetent experimentalist is indistinguishable from a fraud. Any sufficiently competent fraud is indistinguishable from a good result.

Awesome.
 
Don't get me wrong. I'm not 100 percent convinced the ecat is the real deal. But don't forget these demonstrations were never intended to be scientific experiments. They were just what they were called demonstrations with observers allowed a little control and input. If these observers did less than they could have, that's not Rossi's fault. Rossi didn't even want the public demonstrations until after the 1 meg plant is running in Greece. Focardi is the one that wanted the demos because he is old and not in the best of health. None of the physics discussed means anything because both sides of the arguement agree it doesn't behave like one would expect. The only thing that really matters in a practical sense is input energy vs output energy. That will be known soon after product is in the field. Other than a ding to his ego, Rossi could probably care less what the scientific community thinks. If it takes a while for acceptance, it gives him a bigger lead in technology and production.
 
Cuddles

OK, thought experiment over. Now, consider Rossi's tests in the same way:

1) As already discussed, they didn't monitor heater power at all. If the heater didn't have the specifications expected, or if they deliberately used a different one as part of a con, then the actual power could be massively different for a given voltage. Multi-kilowatt heaters run happily off regular household power supply, so there wouldn't necessarily be any noticeable problem other than the higher than expected power.

2) As already discussed, it's a well known fact that flexible pipes do, in fact, flex, especially when under heating. It's also a well known fact that turbulence and cavitation can greatly reduce flow, especially when there is significant heating and vaporisation. I can entirely block off a normal rubber tube with my bare hand, so a reduction in flow even of 1000 times or more would easily be possible.

3) Probably not a significant factor here, but note that there was no monitoring of the input temperature, they just assumed it must be constant. Not enough to account for the results by itself, but certainly an entirely unnecessary source of error.

4) Again, already discussed at length. There's easily enough space to hide a battery or combustion powered heater inside the apparatus, as well as an additional heater whose use is not adequately described in the reports.

5) Hmm.

So, what do we have? Three obvious sources of error, two of which could easily account for the results by themselves or in combination, and all of which could easily be eliminated by any vaguely competent experimenter. In addition, two very obvious places (2 and 4) where fraud could easily be taking place, although only one (4) absolutely requires fraud. And again, both could easily be eliminated by any competent experimenter.

These are sources of fraud not error.

1) the big blue box that draws power from the wall and supplies it to the e-cat is a controller. The purpose of a temperature controller is to deliver and modulate a well regulated amount of electricity to the heater. If the energy delivered to the heater different from what is reported then the explanation is fraud.

2)In the 18 hour test there was no vaporization. The flow rate was set by the municipal water supply. The input power was 80W and the output power was over 100kW. No accidental drop in flow rate could explain this result.

3)In the 18 hour test there is no way that the municipal water supply could vary by accident to the degree required to significantly affect the result.

4)In the 18 hour test the energy output is too high to be explained by a battery.

5)hmmmm I am still convinced that the only credible explanations for the e-cat are fraud or legitimacy. This, in my opinion, would require that several reputable people would be complicit in Rossi's scheme (Prof. Levi and Focardi at the absolute minimum, almost certainly the founders of the US and Greek licensees, etc.).

Your analysis of inadvertent error possibilities suffers because of the magnitudes of excess energy. I recommend looking at the extensive PDF document I linked earlier that analyzes each test in detail.

Wrong. Evidence of fraud is required. We have plenty of that. It is, of course, not 100% conclusive proof, but it's easily good enough for us to say it's probably a fraud, and for virtually no-one in the scientific community to take it the slightest bit seriously.

Enough evidence of fraud is required to be considered proof of fraud. Your second point is dangerously close to an argument from authority. I challenge you to bring this to the attention of scientists you might know, I guarantee you 99% of them won't even know that the e-cat exists, I have mentioned it several times and none of my colleagues know anything about it. Saying that mainstream scientists don't give it serious attention without first determining how many scientists know the details of the story is unconvincing.
 
Cuddles

Enough evidence of fraud is required to be considered proof of fraud. Your second point is dangerously close to an argument from authority. I challenge you to bring this to the attention of scientists you might know, I guarantee you 99% of them won't even know that the e-cat exists, I have mentioned it several times and none of my colleagues know anything about it. Saying that mainstream scientists don't give it serious attention without first determining how many scientists know the details of the story is unconvincing.

We are not trying to prove it is a fraud (it is job of the police).
We are trying to establish if there is enough independently verified evidence that this is real (e.g. that such evidence excludes all possible frauds).

Here is the pdf earlier mentioned with analysis of all fakes that could be
employed.

http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v323.pdf

In general they agree with my conclusions that without
eliminating all the unknown components like lead shielding
and insulating, chemical sources as a possible fake have not been eliminated in most of the tests. In one test where they were eliminated other fake sources were not.

So in overall there is not a single test where all fake options
were eliminated (that conclusion comes in the summary page
on the bottom of the document).

Regards,
Yevgen
 
These are sources of fraud not error.

1) the big blue box that draws power from the wall and supplies it to the e-cat is a controller. The purpose of a temperature controller is to deliver and modulate a well regulated amount of electricity to the heater. If the energy delivered to the heater different from what is reported then the explanation is fraud.
If it is not measured well then it is error, not fraud, it was not measured well. Amd you made a false dichotomy.
2)In the 18 hour test there was no vaporization. The flow rate was set by the municipal water supply.
Ditto
The input power was 80W and the output power was over 100kW.
reditto
No accidental drop in flow rate could explain this result.

3)In the 18 hour test there is no way that the municipal water supply could vary by accident to the degree required to significantly affect the result.
Triditto
4)In the 18 hour test the energy output is too high to be explained by a battery.
Fourth ditto
5)hmmmm I am still convinced that the only credible explanations for the e-cat are fraud or legitimacy.
Piss poor measurement?
 
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Dancing David

If it is not measured well then it is error, not fraud, it was not measured well. Amd you made a false dichotomy.

Given the information available the probability that the device is simply an artifact of measurement error is very remote. I plan to devote as much energy to measurement error as fraud weighted by the probability that the observed results are due to an honest measurement error. Therefore, for every 10000 posts devoted to fraud I will devote one to measurement error.

You are free to suggest that my assertion is a false dichotomy but you would be wrong. If you convolute your arguments enough you can show how honest error might generate the observed results. Feel free to waste your time on it, but it won't be convincing to me. I don't plan on engaging in discussion of silly just so stories of the mechanisms of honest error.
 
Be sure to come back and gloat and "I told you all so", I will post here on Dec 1, 2011 and we will see who was correct.

So the fact that they used poor measurement does not bother you, okay.
 
Be sure to come back and gloat and "I told you all so", I will post here on Dec 1, 2011 and we will see who was correct.

So the fact that they used poor measurement does not bother you, okay.

And forget to include their 'auxiliary heater' in their 'papers'
 
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