Merged Cold Fusion Claims

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So a fire, which apparently did not kill anybody, in one factory, caused them to be unable to produce 100 watt devices and only capable of producing 1 watt devices? Too bad that their backup procedures were so poor and all their employees had such a poor memory. :rolleyes:
They're just being cautious. Last time they made 100-watters, they put out so much heat they burned down the factory! :rolleyes:
 
What was the way they "SHOULD" have measured it, but failed to do? Where did they bungle their measurements?

I'll give myself an out by saying I don't have any training in calorimetry, but if I were testing it, I'd supply DC to the heater, and record the voltage and amperage over the entire run. If it's just a heater, it won't care whether the power it receives is AC or DC. I'd put an oscilloscope on the heater input. Seeing spikes on the heater input would allow you to call shenanigans immediately, since heaters don't behave that way.

A flow meter on the water input and a thermometer and mass flow meter on the output would likewise be recorded over the entire run.

There's no reason not to run the experimental setup for several days, then integrate the data afterward.
 
Now that brings up a question - why do I write a patent that is clearly going
to be rejected because it does not meet the most basic requirement?
My guess is that he hoped it would take longer before the patent would be rejected. Once he filed a patent, he can use the magic phrase 'patent pending'. I suppose when it has been rejected, he can't do that anymore, but during that time using these words is very good marketing, I've heard (from more legitimate enterprises).
 
Another tidbit was recently added by esowatch to their coverage of the energy catalyzer:

Apparently Leonardo Technologies, Inc., a Rossi company, had previously claimed to have developed thermoelectric power devices with an efficiency of 20%(normal is 4%). After initial success a fire destroyed Rossi's Manchester, NH location and he returned to Italy...

Several devices were tested by a contractor of the Department of Defense and surprise, surprise, the devices did not work better than standard devices...

I see the past: "amazing device showing efficiency 20 times higher than normal in "public demonstrations" has disappeared in the factory fire" right before the real external testing was supposed to start. Everything made after that and actually tested by DOI had efficiency 20 times lower or did not work
at all. Now I can predict the future.
Once it gets close to delivering at least one of these Rossi fusion devices
to the paying customers, the whole factory will burn down and the only
person (an elderly technician (!) according to Rossi) who is making
the "secret catalyst", will disappear or conveniently die from old age and
alas, all the technology will be gone with him... The magic will disappear and
the Ni-filled pipes producing energy will again became just plain Ni-filled pipes.

Regards,
Yevgen
 
He's also the chairman of the Swedish skeptics' society, so presumably some people consider him a skeptic.
Sure. I've met him, and unfortunately he seems to show a certain kind of overconfidence that doesn't bode well for this type of examination. I had some discussion with him over dinner, and he absolutely insisted that the finite element method could not be used for gases and fluids. I had encountered this in my studies some years before, so I pressed him a bit, but he was so insistent that I dropped the subject. So when he gets this invitation, as (now former) chairman of the Swedish Skeptic's society, I'm not surprised that he did not call in anyone more qualified than himself to accompany him.
As a member, I'm rather embarrassed by this. Yes, it's true that he hasn't really "endorsed" the project, but in his reports and interviews on the subject he makes many statements of fact that must come from Rossi and that he can't possibly have verified himself. That is not a skeptical attitude.
 
I see the past: "amazing device showing efficiency 20 times higher than normal in "public demonstrations" has disappeared in the factory fire" right before the real external testing was supposed to start.

I think your comments in this thread have been extremely valuable, thank you very much!

But I don't think that is what will happen. Instead, I just expect delays.. delays.. and more delays. The only chance that something dramatic will happen, is if enough disappointed 'investors' get together to sue Rossi. If there comes a point where he can no longer fight these off, either by smooth talk or paying some off with the money of other 'investors', he does not need any factory fire. He can just declare failure and claim that he worked very hard and unfortunately all the money is gone.. but everyone knew this was a risky project, so tough luck. And of course the fake test rigs will have been carefully destroyed at that point.
 
Yepp, I second Merko's opinion.

Look at Blacklight or Steorn. They claim their crap now for how long? Heck, Steorn even invited a group of scientists who tested the device an came up with: "Doesn't work". Steorn didn't even flinch and just claimed that the scientists were mistaken...

Btw.:
"Sean McCarthy resigned and Patt Corbett appointed company secretary, James Murphy, Eamonn McKenna, Allan Wallace and James Joseph Sullican appointed directors"
Scan of the papers: http://www.scribd.com/doc/52869096/Steorn-B10-20110411
 
I did cold fusion once in my shed, but I don't want to prove it or recreate in any sort of controlled independent experiments or anything as I don't think the world could handle something as amazingly awesome as it.
 
Yepp, I second Merko's opinion.

Look at Blacklight or Steorn. They claim their crap now for how long?

Or Tom Bearden, inventor of the Motionless Electromagnetic Generator: "In 2001, Bearden predicted that the first commercial products based on the MEG would be "rolling off the production lines in about one year",[2] and as early as 2002 claimed to have a prototype of the device that produced "100 times more power out than was input"

Or Mark Goldes, CEO of Magnetic Power, Inc:. "SEBASTOPOL, CALIFORNIA, USA -- At their present rate of progress, Magnetic Power Inc. (MPI) says they could have 1 kW Magnetic Power Modules™, anticipated to generate electricity for less than one cent per kilowatt-hour, ready for sale by strategic partners next year. "Nothing else would come close," says Mark Goldes," chairman and CEO. ... MPI has a number of designs under development, and has built a few working prototypes including rotating as well as solid state, no-moving-parts devices." (that's from 2005.)
 
I'll give myself an out by saying I don't have any training in calorimetry, but if I were testing it, I'd supply DC to the heater, and record the voltage and amperage over the entire run. If it's just a heater, it won't care whether the power it receives is AC or DC. I'd put an oscilloscope on the heater input. Seeing spikes on the heater input would allow you to call shenanigans immediately, since heaters don't behave that way.

A flow meter on the water input and a thermometer and mass flow meter on the output would likewise be recorded over the entire run.

There's no reason not to run the experimental setup for several days, then integrate the data afterward.

I do have a background in calorimetry. In fact I wrote the code for a fairly popular automated bomb-type calorimeter.

1. I would have the reactor in a sealed container.

2. The container would be in an insulated water bath of sufficient size not to boil if the reactor produces the claimed output.

3. Heater would be on a fused circuit that will absolutely limit the amps it can draw.

4. Two runs would be made. One with the container containing the reactor and the heater. One with just the heater.

5. A 12 hour run. Temperature rise plotted continuously. Temperature continues to be plotted until rise stops after run.

Then you can easily compute the total calories generated because you can extract the contribution of the heater.
 
Sceptics already looked at it!

"In a detailed report, two Swedish physicists exclude chemical reactions as the energy source in the Italian ‘energy catalyzer’. The two physicists recently supervised a new test of the device in Bologna, Italy."

"“In some way a new kind of physics is taking place. It’s enigmatic, but probably no new laws of nature are involved. We believe it is possible to explain the process with known laws of nature,” said Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and chairman member of the board (chairman until April 2) of the Swedish Skeptics Society."

http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3144827.ece
 
Here is another interesting text on the experiment:
http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v314.php

Interesting document...

Rather disorganized and rambling...

I'm still not sure what it proves, though.:confused:

======

Also, I read the "report" by K&E

Some things I noticed and some thoughts:

1) The pump shown is a common chemical metering/injection pump with adjustable stroke and impulse rate - its output is in "spurts" of fairly constant volume, but not at all smooth. I think it is this brand. Strange choice.

2) The shiny heater wrapped around the large chamber is a standard "barrel band" heater used for plastic extruder barrels - looks to be a 2" dia. X 2 1/4"L size and appears to be marked 230 volt 300 watt - most this size are 500 -> 1000 watt, but not too strange - operating wattage will depend on actual voltage, though.
The evident poor contact with the chamber adds uncertainty to the transfer rate.
There appears to be an immersion heater of unknown wattage inserted inside the horizontal arm (labeled 'auxiliary') but the wire size would limit output.
Both of these appear to be heating the water and not the nickel powder.:eye-poppi

3) The assembly appears to be cobbled together out of copper plumbing parts soldered with "sol-fos" (silver/copper/phosphorus brazing alloy), and has the "look" of a backyard project, rather than a professional research apparatus.

4) The "report" read more like a travel journal than a skeptical critique - horrid science writing.

=======

I agree with BenBurch on the calorimetry aspect.

Time will tell, but my assessment is that this is bunk.

Cheers,

Dave
 
Esowatch says in their article that the pump is the LMI J5 and mention discrepancies with the claimed throughput, at least in the first presentation on January 14, 2011

Btw.: A new experiment seems to be scheduled for Thursday(April 21) in Uppsala, again supervised by the Swedish scientists.
 
Esowatch says in their article that the pump is the LMI J5 and mention discrepancies with the claimed throughput, at least in the first presentation on January 14, 2011

Btw.: A new experiment seems to be scheduled for Thursday(April 21) in Uppsala, again supervised by the Swedish scientists.

"supervised" is a bit of weasel word, if they can't supervise *ALL* part of it, including and not limited to, wattage of the heater, content of the "catalyst" etc...

BLP had got a son , and his name is Rossi.
 
Interesting document...

2) The shiny heater wrapped around the large chamber is a standard "barrel band" heater used for plastic extruder barrels - looks to be a 2" dia. X 2 1/4"L size and appears to be marked 230 volt 300 watt - most this size are 500 -> 1000 watt, but not too strange - operating wattage will depend on actual voltage, though.
The evident poor contact with the chamber adds uncertainty to the transfer rate.
There appears to be an immersion heater of unknown wattage inserted inside the horizontal arm (labeled 'auxiliary') but the wire size would limit output.
Both of these appear to be heating the water and not the nickel powder.:eye-poppi

Dave

Two things:

1 - I'm not familiar with the main heater type. Is the rating usually stamped on the band like that? It distorts the band and interferes with heat transfer. I'd expect the rating to be printed, instead. In which case, it's actually a much bigger heater than labelled, which allows it to provide the observed water temperatures.

2 - Regardless of the mounting irregularities, the unit is ultimately encased in insulation, so the only heat transfer path is into the plumbing. At equilibrium, it all works out. Of course, the heater could get really hot.
 
Esowatch says in their article that the pump is the LMI J5 and mention discrepancies with the claimed throughput, at least in the first presentation on January 14, 2011

Btw.: A new experiment seems to be scheduled for Thursday(April 21) in Uppsala, again supervised by the Swedish scientists.

Thanks for those links.

I had missed the specific pump reference in my reading.:o

I have used similar pumps in the past and recognized it from the photos alone.


My point was that it seems an odd choice. I would have used a continuous output pump with a flow control and RotameterTM (flowmeter) for monitoring.

Cheers,

Dave
 
Two things:

1 - I'm not familiar with the main heater type. Is the rating usually stamped on the band like that? It distorts the band and interferes with heat transfer. I'd expect the rating to be printed, instead. In which case, it's actually a much bigger heater than labelled, which allows it to provide the observed water temperatures.

Yes, that is fairly common. The way these are made, they have an inner and outer metal jacket separated by "mineral" insulation, such as mica, embedded with the resistance wire. The inner jacket is fairly smooth, and is clamped tightly to the barrel OD. Sectional thickness is around 1/8". Stamping reduces the chance of obliteration of the marks (these things are exposed to a harsh environment) and is low-cost. Here is one brand.

I was not trying to calculate whether that heater was sufficient to account for the observed results, just to give someone else potentially useful data.

Actual output (watts) varies as the square of voltage for a given unit. P=E2/R. Overvolting a heater increases its wattage quickly.

2 - Regardless of the mounting irregularities, the unit is ultimately encased in insulation, so the only heat transfer path is into the plumbing. At equilibrium, it all works out. Of course, the heater could get really hot.

Assuming equilibrium. :)

Insulation has thermal mass and thermal flow, after all.

My comment was more directed to the sloppy construction and inattention to detail.

YMMV :)

Cheers,

Dave
 
He's also the chairman of the Swedish skeptics' society, so presumably some people consider him a skeptic.

Former chairman, now.

Anyway, VoF is a very respected society in Sweden, and I was a bit disconcerted about Esséns somewhat overly enthusiastic blog posts - supposedly he has a "particular interest" in cold fusion and perpetual motion. I looked into VoF:s forum discussion on it, however, and the discussion is basically "I wonder how Rossi manipulated the results?"
 
"In a detailed report, two Swedish physicists exclude chemical reactions as the energy source in the Italian ‘energy catalyzer’. The two physicists recently supervised a new test of the device in Bologna, Italy."

"“In some way a new kind of physics is taking place. It’s enigmatic, but probably no new laws of nature are involved. We believe it is possible to explain the process with known laws of nature,” said Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and a lecturer at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology and chairman member of the board (chairman until April 2) of the Swedish Skeptics Society."

It would be a useful test if the metering would be done in meaningful way.

Unfortunately the water was flowing into open reservoir during the pre-test
calibration when they calculated the flow rate.
But during the test itself it was flowing directly into the device.
Since device hydrodynamic resistance is different from "open
reservoir" (and can be variable), this measurement can be completely wrong, as anybody who has played with water-pipes know - you bend
the pipe, the flow goes to zero.

A very likely scenario is that when heating causes water
in the thin pipes to boil, the bubble-formation causes
hydrodynamic resistance to increase drastically, causing
water flow to almost stop, which in turn causes much faster
temperature increase.
All of these are consistent with reported observations.

Previous setu for the first 50 people demonstration was just as bad, there was no water flow calibration attempt at all and it was assumed that pump is pumping fixed amount as advertized (so completely open to possible manipulations).

Considering persistent issues with measurements, I think
at this point it is absolutely critical to have a test satisfying these 2 criteria:
1) performed independent company or researcher (with verifiable experience in heating/cooling equipment and calorimetry) and
2) _using only their own calibrated equipment_ making continuous recording off ALL inputs and outputs. All the measuring equipment should be sealed by independent party and not accessible by Rossi.

It is very simple task and on a high-school science project level.
Let me make it even simpler and list it all here:
1) Continuous recording of water in-flow
2) Continuous recording of water in temperature
3) Continuous recording of water out-flow
4) Continuous recording of water out temperature
5) Continuous recording of input current and voltage to
calculate heater power.
6) Test needs to run for 12 hrs to eliminate chemical sources.

All the results should be presented as continuous graphs.
Power of the device will be calculated by integrating the
heat deltas between 1,2 and 3,4 subtracting power of the heater.

Calculation of power is presented both as differential curve (every second) as well as integral curve (total energy). Later is needed
to account for heat capacities of the device.

Note that vaporization is not necessary or desirable as
long as measurements are done with independent entity controlled
equipment. However, with continuous monitoring on input and
output water as I described above some vaporization is not a problem.

Why is it so difficult to make such a simple test properly if we are talking about a earth shattering discovery and with budget of 500k$? Kids in high-schools are doing tests on this levels with 100$ budget. Hell, one kid made an actual hot-fusion reactor...
Search for "Will's Amateur Science and Engineering"

Regards,
Yevgen
 
A very likely scenario is that when heating causes water
in the thin pipes to boil, the bubble-formation causes
hydrodynamic resistance to increase drastically, causing
water flow to almost stop, which in turn causes much faster
temperature increase.
All of these are consistent with reported observations.

Yevgen - As my previous posts have made clear, I'm morally certain that Rossi is a fake, so please don't take the following as essential disagreement, only one of details.

In the Swedish Report, a graph was shown of the outlet water temperature, which shows a jump in water temperature when it reaches 60 C. My physical intuition says your explanation doesn't work, since I don't see how boiling could occur with that low an outlet temperature. And the temperature rise prior to the jump was so slow that I don't believe there was a significant time delay between the heater and the measurement which would serve.
 
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