Merged Cold Fusion Claims
- Thread starter JoelKatz
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pedrone
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Actually Andrea Rossi is a very stupid man.
I dont understand he.
Instead of butting heads with such thing as cold fusion, he could get rich simply by selling this wonderful battery he uses in his E-Cat.
He could revolutionize the electric car, putting the battery in them.
He's a very fool man, indeed...
Horatius
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Actually Andrea Rossi is a very stupid man.
I dont understand he.
Instead of butting heads with such thing as cold fusion, he could get rich simply by selling this wonderful battery he uses in his E-Cat.
He could revolutionize the electric car, putting the battery in them.
He's a very fool man, indeed...
That's right; ignore Cuddles' post too.
Tell me, do you ever feel even the slightest bit bad about ignoring the substantive arguments, in favour of making strawman arguments?
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Will there be no convenient conspiracy to suppress it then?
catsmate
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Rossi has been spewing conspiracy theories about his failures for more than a decade.
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
The fact that none of the "cold fusion" or "free energy" claimants have done so is pretty telling, IMO.
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
Actually Andrea Rossi is a very stupid man.
I dont understand he.
Instead of butting heads with such thing as cold fusion, he could get rich simply by selling this wonderful battery he uses in his E-Cat.
He could revolutionize the electric car, putting the battery in them.
He's a very fool man, indeed...
Or maybe it doesn't actually work, so the only way to make money is to keep bringing in
Horatius
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The fact that they run the exact same crappy tests, while ignoring or belittling the legitimate criticisms of those tests, is pretty telling.
Seriously - we've been making the same sorts of objections to cold fusion, free energy and LENR "tests" for decades at this point, and yet, none of the proponents of these devices has ever made a serious effort to address the issues.
Exactly. It's like: back when the JREF MDC was testing dowsers, the 100th candidate came in with exactly the same crappy self-test experience as the first one. The 100th ESP practitioner "discovered" his or her abilities at home using the same crappy anecdotal evidence as the previous 99.
But there's a selection effect. Suppose that there are, somewhere out there, 100 garage-based amateur researchers trying to develop cold fusion. And imagine that 99 of them are being careful and taking high-quality measurements, and because cold fusion doesn't exist they're all discovering that nothing interesting has happened. But there's one guy left over---with his inaccurate drugstore thermometers, mislabeled hygrometers, etc.---whose result is something random and far from the truth. So guess which of the 100 experimenters you see on the news?
Here is another interesting text on the experiment:
http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v314.php
http://lenr.qumbu.com/fake_rossi_ecat_v314.php
Christian Klippel
Master Poster
I'm wondering about the measurement of the energy going into the device. They really used cheap power meters, the variety that you can find at home improvement stores? Well, there is no problem to have them show much less than what is actually used.
For example, one could charge a capacitor bank quickly by using short, but energetic pulses of energy, and then have the capacitors release that energy more slowly. This will throw off pretty much all of these devices, since they are unable to register such short pulses properly.
Another method would be to skew the power factor. That way you would get heat "for free" that the power meter would not register. Again, that's because these are very cheap units with very simple circuits to do what they do.
They work best with ohmic loads. Everything else will start to skew the readout.
Greetings,
Chris
For example, one could charge a capacitor bank quickly by using short, but energetic pulses of energy, and then have the capacitors release that energy more slowly. This will throw off pretty much all of these devices, since they are unable to register such short pulses properly.
Another method would be to skew the power factor. That way you would get heat "for free" that the power meter would not register. Again, that's because these are very cheap units with very simple circuits to do what they do.
They work best with ohmic loads. Everything else will start to skew the readout.
Greetings,
Chris
Having followed this for months I feel time to play devils advocate.
Read it which ever way you wish?
My view on the sides.
From Rossi side.( if it's true)
1. If I discovered cold fusion would I give the device to the scientific community to run experiments on even if they promised not to look inside.
Ahmmm no . I'll keep the 50 billion myself.
2. Would I give honest answers on how the device works including the physics and chemistry involved.
Ahmmmmm see answer to 1.
3. If I truthfully know that I had the answer to the worlds best invention since the wheel would I care what is said about me on forums, intrrnet or press.
No
4. How would I release this device.
A. Give it for free.
B. Release it as a scientific discovery with no profit but a noble prize.
C. Sell it as a working device that I can go to market months ahead of the chinese..
D. Patent it and have it stole from the patent office.( bit of conspiracy theory here)
That would be c.
5. How does business release a new technology to the Market.
They sell it. No papers , journals or blogs.
6. People will call me scam artist and I'm scamming.
So i Put up my own money.
Hot fusion physicist.
1. Bollocks the science says this is not possible, so I will go on every media and say so.
2. If this works I'm out of a job . 10,000,000,000 dollars of research grants are gone.
3. 4 years degree, 1 year masters, 2 years doctorate , 3 years post doctorate, 10 years research all wasted.
Pratt(me)
1. A guy with a dubious past comes up with the invention of all inventions. Do I believe Him? No
2. He invents some weird physics that I don't understand to explain it. What do I do ? Come on a dozens websites to read about it.
3. Why do I care? Because I really hope it's true when everything in my body is telling me it's a pile of brown stuff.
4. He's keeps saying wait till the 300mw factory cones on line. Why? Who owns the factory? What does that prove? If I can piss silver what does waiting till I sihite gold prove?
Rossi( scam artist)
1. A scam only works if the timing is right. So Make a device that is needed so badly at this time that enough people want to believe that they throw all sence out the window.
2. People will only give me money if they can't see the tree for the forest.
3. Hide the tree well.
4. Tell the small truths all the time. Repeat all the tine. It must be true. Why . I heard it some were.
5. Make everybody watch the right hand . They will never know what happened to there wallet.
What bugs me is I always see the scam. I always see the the magicians tricks
.
I know it's there but I don't see it yet.
By the way i really like the word scam.
Read it which ever way you wish?
My view on the sides.
From Rossi side.( if it's true)
1. If I discovered cold fusion would I give the device to the scientific community to run experiments on even if they promised not to look inside.
Ahmmm no . I'll keep the 50 billion myself.
2. Would I give honest answers on how the device works including the physics and chemistry involved.
Ahmmmmm see answer to 1.
3. If I truthfully know that I had the answer to the worlds best invention since the wheel would I care what is said about me on forums, intrrnet or press.
No
4. How would I release this device.
A. Give it for free.
B. Release it as a scientific discovery with no profit but a noble prize.
C. Sell it as a working device that I can go to market months ahead of the chinese..
D. Patent it and have it stole from the patent office.( bit of conspiracy theory here)
That would be c.
5. How does business release a new technology to the Market.
They sell it. No papers , journals or blogs.
6. People will call me scam artist and I'm scamming.
So i Put up my own money.
Hot fusion physicist.
1. Bollocks the science says this is not possible, so I will go on every media and say so.
2. If this works I'm out of a job . 10,000,000,000 dollars of research grants are gone.
3. 4 years degree, 1 year masters, 2 years doctorate , 3 years post doctorate, 10 years research all wasted.
Pratt(me)
1. A guy with a dubious past comes up with the invention of all inventions. Do I believe Him? No
2. He invents some weird physics that I don't understand to explain it. What do I do ? Come on a dozens websites to read about it.
3. Why do I care? Because I really hope it's true when everything in my body is telling me it's a pile of brown stuff.
4. He's keeps saying wait till the 300mw factory cones on line. Why? Who owns the factory? What does that prove? If I can piss silver what does waiting till I sihite gold prove?
Rossi( scam artist)
1. A scam only works if the timing is right. So Make a device that is needed so badly at this time that enough people want to believe that they throw all sence out the window.
2. People will only give me money if they can't see the tree for the forest.
3. Hide the tree well.
4. Tell the small truths all the time. Repeat all the tine. It must be true. Why . I heard it some were.
5. Make everybody watch the right hand . They will never know what happened to there wallet.
What bugs me is I always see the scam. I always see the the magicians tricks
.
I know it's there but I don't see it yet.
By the way i really like the word scam.
WhatRoughBeast
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Before folks spend a lot of energy analyzing Rossi's possible motives, and before even more energy is spent looking at possible fusion mechanisms, it might pay to examine Rossi's demonstration. The PDF of the Swedish witness report is linked at post #430, and I highly recommend it.
Reading the report, is there anything which jumps out as unlikely?
Oh yes. Specifically, how does Rossi _stop_ his "reaction"?
Well, he turns off the heater and increases the coolant flow. And neither makes a lot of sense.
First, the heater. It nominally dissipates 300 watts. Its "purpose" is to heat the reactor to about 60 C, at which point the reaction kicks in and produces about 4400 watts. So why is the heater not turned off once the reaction starts? Leaving it on just confuses things, and cannot possibly affect the reaction once it starts. Even more bizarre, consider the following quote:
"At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control."
A heater is supposed to cool the apparatus? To act as a safety? And the Swedes bought into that?
Secondly, let's think about increasing the coolant flow rate. Presumably Rossi's story is that, if the nickel gets cooled below 60 C, the reaction will stop. But consider two more quotes:
"The water temperature was 18 °C. The specific heat of water, 4.18 joule/gram/ °C which is equal to 1.16 Wh/kg/ °C is used to calculate the energy needed to bring 1 kg of water from 18 to 100 °C. The result is 1.16 (100-18) = 95 Wh/kg."
and
"The experiment was continually running from 10:45 to 16:30 when it was stopped by switching off the heater and increasing the cooling water flow to a maximum of 30 liters per hour."
30 liters of water is 30 kg. The energy required to heat this to 100 C is 30 x 95 Wh, or about 3 KWh. Since this takes place over 1 hour, the power required is 3 KW. Since the power evolved by the unit was calculated to be 4.39 KW, this rate of cooling was not enough to reduce the temperature of the device below 100 C, let alone 60 C.
Oops.
So. Is there perhaps a more prosaic explanation for the behavior of the device? You betcha.
"The electric heater was switched on at 10:25, and the meter reading was 1.5 amperes corresponding to 330 watts.." so the heater power was obviously 220 volts.
Now look at Figure 3. See that red wire at the left of the reactor section? That is obviously the heater supply. And it's not sized for any 1.5 amps, either. And note a remarkable coincidence - the heat produced by the unit is just about what you can get from a 220 volt / 20 amp circuit.
And no, I don't actually think that's a coincidence. I strongly suspect that the heater drive unit has been rigged, and the 300 W heater is grossly overdriven (but protected by the water cooling, so it doesn't overheat).
This explains a number of things, like how heat gets transferred to the water, and why the Swedes measured no radioactivity during the test. And. of course, how the damned thing gets turned off.
Reading the report, is there anything which jumps out as unlikely?
Oh yes. Specifically, how does Rossi _stop_ his "reaction"?
Well, he turns off the heater and increases the coolant flow. And neither makes a lot of sense.
First, the heater. It nominally dissipates 300 watts. Its "purpose" is to heat the reactor to about 60 C, at which point the reaction kicks in and produces about 4400 watts. So why is the heater not turned off once the reaction starts? Leaving it on just confuses things, and cannot possibly affect the reaction once it starts. Even more bizarre, consider the following quote:
"At the end of the horizontal section there is an auxiliary electric heater to initialize the burning and also to act as a safety if the heat evolution should get out of control."
A heater is supposed to cool the apparatus? To act as a safety? And the Swedes bought into that?
Secondly, let's think about increasing the coolant flow rate. Presumably Rossi's story is that, if the nickel gets cooled below 60 C, the reaction will stop. But consider two more quotes:
"The water temperature was 18 °C. The specific heat of water, 4.18 joule/gram/ °C which is equal to 1.16 Wh/kg/ °C is used to calculate the energy needed to bring 1 kg of water from 18 to 100 °C. The result is 1.16 (100-18) = 95 Wh/kg."
and
"The experiment was continually running from 10:45 to 16:30 when it was stopped by switching off the heater and increasing the cooling water flow to a maximum of 30 liters per hour."
30 liters of water is 30 kg. The energy required to heat this to 100 C is 30 x 95 Wh, or about 3 KWh. Since this takes place over 1 hour, the power required is 3 KW. Since the power evolved by the unit was calculated to be 4.39 KW, this rate of cooling was not enough to reduce the temperature of the device below 100 C, let alone 60 C.
Oops.
So. Is there perhaps a more prosaic explanation for the behavior of the device? You betcha.
"The electric heater was switched on at 10:25, and the meter reading was 1.5 amperes corresponding to 330 watts.." so the heater power was obviously 220 volts.
Now look at Figure 3. See that red wire at the left of the reactor section? That is obviously the heater supply. And it's not sized for any 1.5 amps, either. And note a remarkable coincidence - the heat produced by the unit is just about what you can get from a 220 volt / 20 amp circuit.
And no, I don't actually think that's a coincidence. I strongly suspect that the heater drive unit has been rigged, and the 300 W heater is grossly overdriven (but protected by the water cooling, so it doesn't overheat).
This explains a number of things, like how heat gets transferred to the water, and why the Swedes measured no radioactivity during the test. And. of course, how the damned thing gets turned off.
This argument has already been made by proponents. The trouble is that he's applied for a patent, and the whole point of a patent is to make sure that you get to keep the 50 billion for yourself. The only alternative is to keep everything a trade secret, but that is only possible if you have complete control over everything - as soon as you start selling the things someone can buy one, open it up, and start making their own.
Depends. You may not care what random people on forums say, but bad press can screw you over no matter how good your product is. Also, given some of the comments in the latest report, it seems these guys really do care about what people are saying about them.
As noted above, as soon as you sell the first model, people will start copying it. If you're really that paranoid about things, the only sensible option would be to set up your own power company and only sell the electricity, not the the device. Of course, given the number of people who would have to end up working in your power plants, the process would inevitably be stolen and copied anyway, but it might take at least a little bit longer.
Nope. Even if cold fusion turns out to be real, hot fusion won't suddenly stop working.
Yes, this is a common problem with perpetual motion machines. They always need an initial input to get them going, but somehow always seem to need it to keep going afterwards, even though they should be producing more than enough power to keep themselves running without it.
I'd wondered about that, but hadn't got around to actually doing any calculations for it. Very interesting.
Again, very interesting. It's pretty clear that all the calculations of power are horribly flawed, and given how little the skeptic guy bothered to check I have to wonder why he bothered turning up at all.
Welcome to the forum, by the way.
Last edited:
WhatRoughBeast
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"given how little the skeptic guy bothered to check I have to wonder why he bothered turning up at all."
Assuming you're referring to one of the swedes who wrote the report, the answer is that he wasn't a skeptic - he's a physicist. And the difference is important.
Randi often mentioned that professional scientists are not very good at detecting fraud. The problem is that, since science is constantly building on the results of others, and the need for reproduceability makes fraud unprofitable in the long run, scientists are (in the short run) easily bamboozled. Their first instinct is to trust other researchers, and to try to explain data as it is presented to them. There have been any number of otherwise competent scientists who went public with support for paranormals of various sorts, and who regretted the experience.
Note the treatment of the heater driver. It's not considered important enough to be photographed or described in detail. It apparently has a current meter. Is it remotely programmable? It would make sense for all of the support equipment to be installed in the radiation-proof room, where no-one can see it during the experiment. And I think it's been remarked before, but the question of exactly what radiation is produced is notable for its lack of answers. It does, however, provide a really good excuse to keep observers away during operation. Or am I being too cynical? Nah.
"Welcome to the forum, by the way."
Thanks. It's good to be here.
Assuming you're referring to one of the swedes who wrote the report, the answer is that he wasn't a skeptic - he's a physicist. And the difference is important.
Randi often mentioned that professional scientists are not very good at detecting fraud. The problem is that, since science is constantly building on the results of others, and the need for reproduceability makes fraud unprofitable in the long run, scientists are (in the short run) easily bamboozled. Their first instinct is to trust other researchers, and to try to explain data as it is presented to them. There have been any number of otherwise competent scientists who went public with support for paranormals of various sorts, and who regretted the experience.
Note the treatment of the heater driver. It's not considered important enough to be photographed or described in detail. It apparently has a current meter. Is it remotely programmable? It would make sense for all of the support equipment to be installed in the radiation-proof room, where no-one can see it during the experiment. And I think it's been remarked before, but the question of exactly what radiation is produced is notable for its lack of answers. It does, however, provide a really good excuse to keep observers away during operation. Or am I being too cynical? Nah.
"Welcome to the forum, by the way."
Thanks. It's good to be here.
"given how little the skeptic guy bothered to check I have to wonder why he bothered turning up at all."
A cursory examination of the topic of cold fusion will inform you of the fact that it is impossible to patent cold fusion based devices. The patent office rejects them without examination (similar to perpetual motion machines).
The fact is that even if the device worked a patent would not be granted for it under the rules of the patent office. Any argument about patents is pointless. This is basic information about the topic.
The calculation of reactor cooling under 30L/hr flow rate is deeply flawed. A cursory examination of the published data and patent application shows that resistive heating is applied directly to the nickel reactor core. The temperature of the core is much higher than 60 or 100C when resistive heating is applied. It is fully possible to cool the reactor with 30L/hr.
It takes 5 minutes to come up with this information....
A cursory examination of the topic of cold fusion will inform you of the fact that it is impossible to patent cold fusion based devices. The patent office rejects them without examination (similar to perpetual motion machines).
The fact is that even if the device worked a patent would not be granted for it under the rules of the patent office. Any argument about patents is pointless. This is basic information about the topic.
The calculation of reactor cooling under 30L/hr flow rate is deeply flawed. A cursory examination of the published data and patent application shows that resistive heating is applied directly to the nickel reactor core. The temperature of the core is much higher than 60 or 100C when resistive heating is applied. It is fully possible to cool the reactor with 30L/hr.
It takes 5 minutes to come up with this information....
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
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Interesting, last time I searched for his application, I couldn't find it, but now I've found it!
http://v3.espacenet.com/publication...T=D&date=20091015&CC=WO&NR=2009125444A1&KC=A1
You can download pdfs of several versions if you're interested. I'll give it a read, and post my comments later.
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
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Okay, a few points as I read through it:
Two things here: he seems to be endorsing the theory that the metal matrix allows the atoms to be compressed, which has been pretty well shown to be impossible, as far as I know.
But, more importantly, he describes the catalysts as being "optional", so he was either lying when he wrote this, or he's been lying about how he's keeping the catalysts secret, which is why no one is allowed to look inside the device. If these catalysts aren't actually necessary for the reaction, then he's protecting nothing by denying access to the device.
Well, here he seems to contradict himself - is the heat source turned off "as the exothermal reaction generating energizing status is triggered", or is it controlled by the thermostat?
This confusion is compounded by a later passage:
So, it seems it's supposed to switch off "as nickel is activated by hydrogen". Okay, so why didn't they switch it off during any of the recent demonstrations?
And here's a claim I've been wondering about:
If this has been running for over three years at this point, why is he only now trying to market it, and why is he relying on a few really crappy "demonstrations"? After three years, he should have a volume of data that should simply overwhelm any possible objections.
And yet, we never see anything of the sort.
Well, where to start? Let's just say, the recent demos haven't mentioned any of this at all, have they?
And the single biggest problem:
Absolutely no where does he tell us what the "optional" catalysts are. From what he's been saying publicly, these catalysts are the key aspect of his invention, and a failure to disclose them, even if the device works, should be fatal to any patent being granted. Without this information, he hasn't produced an "enabling disclosure", which is a requirement of pretty much every patent system.
Two things here: he seems to be endorsing the theory that the metal matrix allows the atoms to be compressed, which has been pretty well shown to be impossible, as far as I know.
But, more importantly, he describes the catalysts as being "optional", so he was either lying when he wrote this, or he's been lying about how he's keeping the catalysts secret, which is why no one is allowed to look inside the device. If these catalysts aren't actually necessary for the reaction, then he's protecting nothing by denying access to the device.
Well, here he seems to contradict himself - is the heat source turned off "as the exothermal reaction generating energizing status is triggered", or is it controlled by the thermostat?
This confusion is compounded by a later passage:
So, it seems it's supposed to switch off "as nickel is activated by hydrogen". Okay, so why didn't they switch it off during any of the recent demonstrations?
And here's a claim I've been wondering about:
If this has been running for over three years at this point, why is he only now trying to market it, and why is he relying on a few really crappy "demonstrations"? After three years, he should have a volume of data that should simply overwhelm any possible objections.
And yet, we never see anything of the sort.
Well, where to start? Let's just say, the recent demos haven't mentioned any of this at all, have they?
And the single biggest problem:
Absolutely no where does he tell us what the "optional" catalysts are. From what he's been saying publicly, these catalysts are the key aspect of his invention, and a failure to disclose them, even if the device works, should be fatal to any patent being granted. Without this information, he hasn't produced an "enabling disclosure", which is a requirement of pretty much every patent system.
Horatius
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WhatRoughBeast
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Crawdaddy -
"The fact is that even if the device worked a patent would not be granted for it under the rules of the patent office. Any argument about patents is pointless. This is basic information about the topic.
The calculation of reactor cooling under 30L/hr flow rate is deeply flawed. A cursory examination of the published data and patent application shows that resistive heating is applied directly to the nickel reactor core. The temperature of the core is much higher than 60 or 100C when resistive heating is applied. It is fully possible to cool the reactor with 30L/hr.
It takes 5 minutes to come up with this information.... "
Yeah, but how long does it take to come up with _true_ information?
From xxxx://pesn.com/2011/04/07/9501805_Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Validated_by_Swedish_Skeptics_Society/
"This new model of E-Cat consists of a stainless steel reactor vessel which is placed inside of a copper pipe. Water flows between the copper pipe and the steel reactor vessel... The reactor is activated by current flowing through a resistor which is wrapped around the outside of the copper pipe. "
Given your own statement, there is considerable irony here. Not only "Any argument about patents is pointless.", but apparently "any argument based on patents is pointless." At least when it comes to the Rossi Energy Amplifier.
"The fact is that even if the device worked a patent would not be granted for it under the rules of the patent office. Any argument about patents is pointless. This is basic information about the topic.
The calculation of reactor cooling under 30L/hr flow rate is deeply flawed. A cursory examination of the published data and patent application shows that resistive heating is applied directly to the nickel reactor core. The temperature of the core is much higher than 60 or 100C when resistive heating is applied. It is fully possible to cool the reactor with 30L/hr.
It takes 5 minutes to come up with this information.... "
Yeah, but how long does it take to come up with _true_ information?
From xxxx://pesn.com/2011/04/07/9501805_Rossi_Cold_Fusion_Validated_by_Swedish_Skeptics_Society/
"This new model of E-Cat consists of a stainless steel reactor vessel which is placed inside of a copper pipe. Water flows between the copper pipe and the steel reactor vessel... The reactor is activated by current flowing through a resistor which is wrapped around the outside of the copper pipe. "
Given your own statement, there is considerable irony here. Not only "Any argument about patents is pointless.", but apparently "any argument based on patents is pointless." At least when it comes to the Rossi Energy Amplifier.
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