Christopher 7 --- C7 & C4

[Calcas]

Chris;
Many people have asked this question but it never seems to get answered. WHY demo WTC7 seems kind of pointless. Can you possibly shed light on this for us?

No, they can't explain it.

Because it WOULD BE pointless.

Chris, care to hypothesize?

 

[Christopher7]

So? That didn't stop Jowenko from going public.

If anything, seeing Jowenko speak out without being harmed should encourage others to do the same. But it hasn't. So again, I ask you what possible motivation might they have for not doing so if it is as obvious a CD as you and Jowenko claim? Are demolition experts just evil (except for Jowenko)?

He's in Europe and as he said, anyone in the US saying that WTC 7 was a CD "would be gone".

 

[Christopher7]

Maybe there was a lack of noise for the same reason there are a lack of demolition experts publically supporting the theory. The folks who shot the various videos were intimidated into *editing* the sound tracks.

So, we should ignore the visual evidence because we don't have much audio evidence. [just Daryl and Craig]

We should also ignore the owner of a CD company, who didn't have any audio evidence, and still says that WTC 7 was absolutely a CD.

 

[DGM]

He's in Europe and as he said, anyone in the US saying that WTC 7 was a CD "would be gone".

Nobody that has spoke out in the US has ever been harmed or silenced. Alex Jones is living proof of that.

 

[Christopher7]

Nobody that has spoke out in the US has ever been harmed or silenced. Alex Jones is living proof of that.

Not so

General Shenseki
Dixie Chicks
Valerie Plame
Stephen Jones
Kevin Ryan

Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer
Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott
James D. Smith
Major Eric Kleinsmith
(able danger whistle blowers)

Col. Steve Butler (man who trained two of the hijackers in US spy training in 1997)

Sibel Edmonds and Robert Wright (FBI agents)

Indira Singh

Major Mike McCormic (one of the most decorated heroes of 9/11 in NY)

These people were threatened, fired, had their pensions taken away, leagally gaged or arrested by a swat team (McCormic)

Don't bother posting your slander file on these people as it just reinforces the point that if you say the administration is not telling the truth there will be a price to pay.

 

[BeAChooser]

He's in Europe and as he said, anyone in the US saying that WTC 7 was a CD "would be gone".

And you don't think Europe and the rest of the world outside the US have any other demolition experts besides Jowenko? ROTFLOL!

Why haven't any members of the Syndicat National des Entreprises de Démolition (SNED) in France come forward? Moe than 600 contractors are members of that organization. Are they all in fear for their lives from those nasty Americans in the black suits? (sarcasm)

Why didn't the attendees of this conference (http://www.asco-abbruch.de/html/demolition_2007.html) in Germany speak out? There were over 400 participants from all over Europe.

According to this article in Japan Times (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?nn20031230a3.htm) there "are roughly 30,000 demolition companies in Japan". Surely at least ONE person from ONE of those companies would come forward to support Jowenko's conclusion.

I ask you again. What is keeping any other demolition expert in the world from coming forward if it's so obvious that even you can see its a CD? Are demolition experts around the world completely imcompetent (except for Jowenko) or evil (except for Jowenko)?

 

[BeAChooser]

So, we should ignore the visual evidence because we don't have much audio evidence. [just Daryl and Craig]

We should also ignore the owner of a CD company, who didn't have any audio evidence, and still says that WTC 7 was absolutely a CD.

We shouldn't ignore visual evidence.

But we also shouldn't ignore the auditory evidence, as you are doing.

And we also shouldn't promote such ridiculous nonsense as suggesting that all the demolition experts in the US are mum because they fear for their lives.

And by the same *truther* logic, the ridiculous nonsense that all the structural engineers, experts in macro-world physics, experts in fire, experts in steel and concrete and experts in seismology are incompetent or fear for their lives.

Indeed, what makes janitors, sub-atomic particle physicists, water treatment experts, economists, computer programmers, lawyers, and mechanical engineers so willing to sacrifice their lives when all the real experts in the subject of interest hide under their beds?

 

[Christopher7]

We shouldn't ignore visual evidence.

But we also shouldn't ignore the auditory evidence, as you are doing.

And we also shouldn't promote such ridiculous nonsense as suggesting that all the demolition experts in the US are mum because they fear for their lives.

Who said any thing about fear for their lives?

And by the same *truther* logic, the ridiculous nonsense that all the structural engineers, experts in macro-world physics, experts in fire, experts in steel and concrete and experts in seismology are incompetent or fear for their lives.

Indeed, what makes janitors, sub-atomic particle physicists, water treatment experts, economists, computer programmers, lawyers, and mechanical engineers so willing to sacrifice their lives when all the real experts in the subject of interest hide under their beds?

http://www.ae911truth.org

Some of these people are highly qualified structural engineers.
You seem to think that the others have no knowledge of things outside their area of expertise.
Such is not the case.

Many, but not all, experts are afraid to speak of for fear of being fired, not killed.

Would you please list some of these 'real experts' who say that WTC 7 was NOT a CD.

 

[BeAChooser]

Not so

General Shenseki
Dixie Chicks
Valerie Plame
Stephen Jones
Kevin Ryan

Lt. Col. Anthony Schaffer
Navy Capt. Scott Phillpott
James D. Smith
Major Eric Kleinsmith
(able danger whistle blowers)

Col. Steve Butler (man who trained two of the hijackers in US spy training in 1997)

Sibel Edmonds and Robert Wright (FBI agents)

Indira Singh

Major Mike McCormic (one of the most decorated heroes of 9/11 in NY)

These people were threatened, fired, had their pensions taken away, leagally gaged or arrested by a swat team (McCormic)

ROTFLOL!

General Shenseki is not a member of the *truth* movement. He was fired. He left because the civilian leadership decided (right or wrong) not to listen to his views regarding the commitment needed to win the Iraq war.

Dixie Chicks were not punished by *the government*. They were punished by the people they relied on to buy their albums. If you insult your customers, expect to be punished.

Valerie Plame was not threatened or fired by the government. Nor has she had her pension taken away and she certainly hasn't been gagged or arrested. And she's also not on record supporting your silly theories.

Stephen Jones resigned from BYU. He himself stated he was not fired, left on amicable terms and was happy with the outcome. He was never threatened or fired by the government. Nor has he lost his pension, been gagged or arrested.

Kevin Ryan was fired because he represented his own screwy 9/11 views as those of Underwriters Laboratory when he published his views on UL stationary. He also misrepresented what UL data on the steel at the WTC means ... and did it on UL stationary.

Please provide proof that any of the able danger whistle blowers have been threatened, fired, had his pension taken away, gagged or arrested. Because to my knowledge, they have not. And I don't believe they have indicated any belief in your bombs in the towers theory.

As to Col. Steve Butler, Sibel Edmonds and Robert Wright I don't know whether the claims of their being threatened or otherwise punished are true or not. But I assure you that you only discredit the legitimate questions they (and the able danger whistle blowers) may be raising when you link them to nonsense like your bombs in the WTC towers theory. You do them a disservice.

Indira Singh? You really want to talk about Indira Singh? Ok. Her WTC7 testimony is assumption and heresay. Nothing more. Anything else she has to say? Well see my previous comment.

Major Mike McCormic? Your source for saying he was punished in some way?

 

[BeAChooser]

Who said any thing about fear for their lives?

Jowenko. Remember? If not, see your post #302. And if not lives, fear of losing their job. That's just as ridiculous a claim.

http://www.ae911truth.org

Some of these people are highly qualified structural engineers.

Garbage. Here's a post I made previously on these claimed ae911truth experts. Let's see your response.

*************

Is "Haluk Akol, Architect & Structural Engineer, Lafayette, CA" really a structural engineer? I can find nothing to indicate that. Something written about his son on the web states that "His father, Haluk was an architect who came from Istanbul in 1945." And note that would make him over 80 years old.

How about "James Brooks, B. Civil Eng, University of Texas, Engineering Consultant"? I can't find anything on the web about him. Nothing at the University of Texas either. Who does he work for? What has he been working on since graduation? When was that?

"Jason Griffin, BS, Civil Engineer Washington Dc" is listed elsewhere as belonging to ASCE and being a project coordinator. But again, what is his actual experience. Is it water treatment? Foundation engineering? Highway engineering? Without knowing more, it's impossible to tell whether he actually has any relevant qualifications.

"Ted Muga, BSCE, Civil Engineer, San Diego, CA" is described on the Scholars for 9/11 *Truth* website as a "naval aviator, commercial pilot, structural engineering". But what engineering work did he ever actually do to merit the claim of being a structural engineer? At the patriotsquestion911 website he lists himself as a retired aviator and pilot. But there is no mention of being a structural engineer. Why not mention that if he is one?

By the way, there is an interview with Ted Muga on the web where he says he retired as a naval aviator in 1985 and retired as a commercial pilot in 1991. Again, there is no mention of his doing structural engineering at any time in his life. A little over half way through that interview, the interviewer makes several false claims ... that there was "a visible lack of wreckage around the site of the hole" in the Pentagon and that "there was no indication that the large turbine engines on each wing of the plane had impacted the sides of the Pentagon. There would have been some mark or small holes or something in the side of the Pentagon. The momentum of those heavy engines would have carried forward with the plane hitting in the side of the pentagon at over 200 mph and made some mark but there was nothing there." Both statements are absolutely false as photos that are readily available on the internet prove. And Ted Muga, claimed structural engineer, is asked about this and doesn't correct him. No, instead he claims the plane wreckage and contents (fuselage fragments, wing fragments, seats, etc) should have been strewn all over the front of the pentagon. He says that the engines didn't damage the building but should have. He claims that the fuselage and most of the rest of the plane (other than engines and landing gear) couldn't have damaged the building ... that the fuselage and wings should have shattered on impact. He says "there is absolutely no evidence at all that a large commericial aircraft had gone in there." Well that is absolutely FALSE. So clearly Ted is completely ignorant of the facts about the damage that occurred. But that doesn't stop him from regurgitate the lies of the interviewer because he, like the interviewer, apparently has an agenda so the truth doesn't matter to him.

In other venues, "Joseph Testa, P.E., Civil Engineer, Thousand Oaks, CA" claimed to have "worked in structural steel for years" and "studied major structural collapses." But all we really know about this guy is what he claims. We don't know where he's worked. We don't know what degrees he has. And searching California Professional Engineers returns no hits under that name.

Again, there is no other reference for "Dr. Michael Voschine, PhD., Structural Engineer, Miami, Florida" on the web other than ae911truth's. We have no idea if this a real person, where he got his degree, where he's been practicing engineering, what projects he's been involved in or what he actually thinks.

"Rob Tamaki, M.A.Sc., P.Eng., Civil Engineer, Vancouver, BC" is not an expert in buildings. He's on the Small Water and Waste Systems Committee for B.C.. He's about as qualified as you when it comes to structures, impact, fire and collapse.

"John Franklin, P.E." Surely you can tell us more than that. What is is expertise and experience? Why is so little information provided if you've checked these folks credential out?

"Peter Gibbons P.E., Professional Engineer" Same complaint.

Next we have "Rich Reed, B.S. Structural Engineering, UC San, Structural / Soils Engineer" in San Diego, California. Not much else available about him either.

"Robert Tamaki, M.A.Sc., P.Eng., Civil Engineer" Vancouver, BC. Same complaint.

"Dennis J. Kollar, P.E., Structural Engineer" Same complaint. Although there is a Dennis Kollar apparently working for Ambrose Engineering in Cedarburg, WI and they do structural engineering. They seem to do a lot of schools.

"Ron Paul LeBlanc, PE, Engineer" Same complaint. Oh wait. Turns out he's in another line of work now ... real estate and selling home businesses.

The ae911truth site lists "Charles N. Pegelow, PE, Civil Engineer. lic Calif CE 26344 (Structural)" as a member. Mr Pegelow has a BS in civil engineering, not structural engineering. That's a separate, higher level degree. His is also a civil engineering license, rather than a structural engineering license. The ae911truth website is dishonest in implying that it is a structural license. Furthermore, it turns out that Pegelow has been working for about 30 years in the oil drilling industry. He spent almost his entire life working on oil drilling platforms. He's not an expert on buildings, much less skyscrapers.

"Warren J Raftshol, MS Civil Engineering, 1982" is listed as from Suttons Bay, Michigan. Unusual name. Could this be the same person? "Warren Raftshol, Suttons Bay, MI 49682 Grape grower, winery owner, libertarian since 1965." And elsewhere on the web he's described as follows "Raftshol, 51, has a scraggly beard and wears wide suspenders, denim shirts and jeans. He's a man with no pretenses. Though he has a master's degree in civil engineering from Northwestern University, he chose agriculture on the family homestead. "Back in the early '80s," he reminds you, "there were no jobs.""

"Massimo Dell'Affidabilità, Ing., Engineer, Structural Specialist". Well the name is a sure clue that the entry is bogus. Don't you think?

*************

So what were you saying about ae911truth experts? ROTFLOL!

 

[DGM]

Don't bother posting your slander file on these people as it just reinforces the point that if you say the administration is not telling the truth there will be a price to pay.

You forgot to mention Chris Bollyn.

 

[JimBenArm]

You also forgot Christopher7 on that list. Oh, wait, he's just been laughed at and mocked mercilessly. Still alive and kicking, isn't he? Not been placed in a re-education camp or anything? Not even a threatening phone call?
And it's not like posting under a pseudonym here offers him any protection if the ebil gubbmint wants him. That he's still here, posting this nonsense freely, shows how laughable his ideas are!

 

[Christopher7]

You also forgot Christopher7 on that list. Oh, wait, he's just been laughed at and mocked mercilessly. Still alive and kicking, isn't he? Not been placed in a re-education camp or anything? Not even a threatening phone call?
And it's not like posting under a pseudonym here offers him any protection if the ebil gubbmint wants him. That he's still here, posting this nonsense freely, shows how laughable his ideas are!

You think the owner of a demolition company is talking nonsense because he hays WTC 7 was a CD.

You think you know better.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The video was interesting to be sure. I would side with Jowenko, in his implication that the reason the building owner would want it brought down would be because of the high price of repair.
Just pay some people off to drop the building and just rebuild it.
But if that were the case, that would implicate the buildings owner, not the government. (If of course CD had been used at all)

And I agree with everyone else here that there is no point in speculation. Wait until the NIST report comes out and see what they have to say.
I'm sure the CT crowd is expecting a whitewash, but just give it a chance before you dismiss it.

 

[DGM]

The video was interesting to be sure. I would side with Jowenko, in his implication that the reason the building owner would want it brought down would be because of the high price of repair.
Just pay some people off to drop the building and just rebuild it.
But if that were the case, that would implicate the buildings owner, not the government. (If of course CD had been used at all

The catch with this though is it would have had to happen quickly and in plain sight.

I think it can happen quickly as long as you don't mind dropping the controlled part of the demolition. The catch to that is you need more explosives.

To think that no one would notice the tractor trailer pulling up and a large team loading the building with charges is just silly.

Besides the building was insured for this type of thing. Silverstein would have no motive and would have to convince the FDNY and the city to do it.

 

[lapman]

You think the owner of a demolition company is talking nonsense because he hays WTC 7 was a CD.

This is a fun one. Danny only saw the last 6 seconds of the collapse from a tiny, muted video clip. He was also only told that there was fire in the building. He was not told of the structural damage. Since the sound was muted, he would not have known that there wasn't a single sound of the so-called explosives recorded. So, he is basing his comments only on very limited info so he could only make assumptions. So the WTC7 interview was carefully engineered toward getting the results the interviewers wanted.

His comments on the WTC1&2 are a very different matter. The video he was looking at was the Loose Change video with sound including the "explanations" of what was being shown. He understood perfectly what was going on in the towers. He explained in detail why it was a collapse and not a CD. He explained why the "squibs" and "popping sounds" are a part of the collapse in great detail and went on to say that it would have been impossible to bring down the towers from the upper portions with explosives.

 

[Christopher7]

This is a fun one. Danny only saw the last 6 seconds of the collapse from a tiny, muted video clip. He was also only told that there was fire in the building. He was not told of the structural damage. Since the sound was muted, he would not have known that there wasn't a single sound of the so-called explosives recorded. So, he is basing his comments only on very limited info so he could only make assumptions. So the WTC7 interview was carefully engineered toward getting the results the interviewers wanted.

They showed him videos of WTC 7 collapsing.

He knew about the debris damage.

1:35 into the interview he says
"They had a piece of luck that since there was already very much destroyed"

He knew about the fires.

1:09
"I remember that they told they've imploded it, it smoked for days."

He did not need to hear the explosions.

Whatever he saw convinced him that WTC 7 was a CD

At the end of the interview, after looking at the column layout, he still said that WTC 7 was "absolutely" a CD.

A couple months later, in a phone call, he reaffirmed that WTC 7 was "absolutely" a CD.

He is an expert, you are not.

The videos are clearly "compelling evidence" of a CD, yet the authors of a report, from an administration that systematically distorts scientific documents, say there is no evidence of CD.

The scientists and engineers make no mention of why CD was not considered a possibility.


How many people have independently stated that the videos are not evidence of a CD ?

 

[DGM]

Chris:
You never answered me on the WHY. I'd really like to hear your thoughts

DGM

(eta) you can say you don't know, it's not a crime. I can except that

 

[Christopher7]

Chris:
You never answered me on the WHY. I'd really like to hear your thoughts

DGM

(eta) you can say you don't know, it's not a crime. I can except that

There is no way i could know why, but there is motive.

$

However, that's another subject for another thread.

 

[DGM]

There is no way i could know why, but there is motive.

$

However, that's another subject for another thread.

Thank you. Now that wasn't so hard was it.

Silverstein lost money but like you say thats for another day.

DGM