Christian Salvation Is Heinously Unjust

Ethnikos said:
Jesus died because of the sin of the world, and he died in his effort to free us from death.
Part of what he was doing and which is integral to salvation is to send the Holy Ghost who through the name of Jesus has become accessible to all, though we are not holy enough ourselves to receive it.
It is by the agency of the Holy Spirit that we come to the knowledge of God.
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So Jesus died for sin in general not anyones' in particular? If access to the Holy Ghost comes thru Jesus who was Abraham talking to?
 
tsig said:
So Jesus died for sin in general not anyones' in particular? If access to the Holy Ghost comes thru Jesus who was Abraham talking to?
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Adam to Noah to Shem, to Abraham.
These were the "Holy Men of God" by declaration if not otherwise.
We are not them.
We are the "un-holy" but are adopted into holiness by the will and testament of Jesus who died to leave us that inheritance of the birthright to be that holy thing.
 
Ethnikos said:
Adam to Noah to Shem, to Abraham.
These were the "Holy Men of God" by declaration if not otherwise.
We are not them.
We are the "un-holy" but are adopted into holiness by the will and testament of Jesus who died to leave us that inheritance of the birthright to be that holy thing.
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Jesus didn't mention me in his will.
 
Leumas said:
Some Pertinent Background facts
According to the Christian Catechisms you can only be saved by believing in Christ. (Salvation)

Also, even if you are a sinner so long as you repent and avow that Christ died for your sins and are baptized you will still go to heaven. (Atonement)
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Depending upon which doctrine you ascribe to, the path to heaven requires repentance and further avoidance of mortal sin. That's a non trivial caveat.

By the way, by Christian do you mean Roman Catholic, or some other sect?
 
dafydd said:
What does that have to do with what DR wrote? Did you mean Roman Catholic or some other sect?
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oversimplification
People turn it into slogans.
That's the best way I can describe it right now.
Truthisms.
In political terms, bumper stickers.
Looking at slogans I see a whole lot left out, or worse, serious error.
I can't limit it to a particular sect because on the street level, there seems to be a pop-culture Christianity.
 
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hgc said:
What's he offering? Bertie Botts Beans and Fizzing Whizzbees?
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They sound a lot better (and are more real*) than Salvation and Atonement.

* You can buy them in a store.

Really looking forward to seeing the last film (about HP, of course, not that other imaginary guy).
 
Ethnikos said:
Adam to Noah to Shem, to Abraham.
These were the "Holy Men of God" by declaration if not otherwise.
We are not them.
We are the "un-holy" but are adopted into holiness by the will and testament of Jesus who died to leave us that inheritance of the birthright to be that holy thing.
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It's looking like Jesus come here to convict me of sins rather than forgiving them.
 
Ethnikos said:
Jesus died because of the sin of the world, and he died in his effort to free us from death.
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I just cannot understand the concept here. Forget Jesus for the moment and explain how someone dying provides atonement or salvation or, well, anything for the world left behind. Wouldn't hanging around and working for whatever one believes in do one helluva lot more for humanity than just tipping over? Again, what is the principle here that explains death as redemption for others?

Now, for the specific case of Jesus, why does his death atone for anything? How does his death save us from death? Doesn't even writing such a self-contradictory thing give you a headache? Wouldn't living a full life of service be a far more compelling example of a life well lived?

Finally, how can you use the word "death" on someone who was not human. By that I mean you say that he was sinless. Then, since we all screw up some time and he didn't, then he wasn't a normal human. So what does death mean in his case? And how does his torture and death lead to anything meaningful. The very idea is barbaric, backward and malign.
 
@ SezMe
I read your post #57 and these are every one of the real important questions.
I was on another forum explaining what the Holy Spirit is, so did not see your post until now. I am posting right now to say I do intend to answer all that but it will take me a while not being at all fast of a writer.
 
tsig said:
It's looking like Jesus come here to convict me of sins rather than forgiving them.
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There is a potential downside to all this, I have to admit. But better to be convicted, as in coming to a realization that there could be a problem, now while you can do something, rather than after you die, and you can't.
 
SezMe said:
*snip*
And how does his torture and death lead to anything meaningful. The very idea is barbaric, backward and malign.
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I will start with this because I can give a short reply to it.
People die and are tortured every day for no good reason at all so what happened to Jesus physically is not so extraordinary in itself.
It would be nice, maybe, to think that for once, one of these events could be of some use, somehow.
 
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