Christian Salvation Is Heinously Unjust

sphenisc said:
Leumas described proof by contradiction, which is an example of a logical proof. Logic being a branch of mathematics. So your point seems largely irrelevant.
Click to expand...


It may seem so, perhaps, but I don't think that it is irrelevant.

That proof by contradiction is valid itself requires assumptions (axioms) that are not assumed in every mathematical system. Proof is a concept that must be used with great care, and that care is seldom taken in philosophical discussions and never (in my experience) in more casual discussions.

It should not be bandied about, and it does not belong in the sciences.
 
Last edited:
Christianity is about mercy as well as justice.

Specifically, Christ provides an avenue to fulfill justice and receive mercy.

Corruption in organizations claiming to belong to Christ's Church, especially if that corruption causes people to turn away from Christ, is a terrible thing. It's a genuine victory for God's enemies.

As for absolution and forgiveness, there is no formula to follow there, and no word or judgment any man makes has a shred of relevance to the subject. If the child molester genuinely turned away from his evil and turned to God, he will be just as saved from that sin as from any other. If he tried to use the Church as a license to practice his evil without consequence, he will find his afterlife to be as unpleasant as the other workers of iniquity.

The parents and children have the same opportunity to form relationships with God as anyone else -- and hopefully find their way to a church that is actually following Christ, and not corrupt.

The error in thinking, here, is common to Catholicism -- misaking an earthly priesthood as having any sort of special authority or holiness with respect to God. The clergy is corrupt. Christians deserve better. And, in many places, those that seek find better.
 
Last edited:
There are no gods, all religions are wrong, and christianity is especially wrong.

Shed your superstitions.
 
Leumas said:
*snip*
. . .even if you are a sinner so long as you repent and avow that Christ died for your sins and are baptized you will still go to heaven.
*snip*
Click to expand...
Yes, this is true.
Why would you have a problem with it?

Edit to add: with one qualification, Jesus died for everyone's sins. Just to clarify a bit.
 
Last edited:
AvalonXQ said:
Christianity is about mercy as well as justice.

Specifically, Christ provides an avenue to fulfill justice and receive mercy.

Corruption in organizations claiming to belong to Christ's Church, especially if that corruption causes people to turn away from Christ, is a terrible thing. It's a genuine victory for God's enemies.
As for absolution and forgiveness, there is no formula to follow there, and no word or judgment any man makes has a shred of relevance to the subject. If the child molester genuinely turned away from his evil and turned to God, he will be just as saved from that sin as from any other. If he tried to use the Church as a license to practice his evil without consequence, he will find his afterlife to be as unpleasant as the other workers of iniquity.

The parents and children have the same opportunity to form relationships with God as anyone else -- and hopefully find their way to a church that is actually following Christ, and not corrupt.

The error in thinking, here, is common to Catholicism -- misaking an earthly priesthood as having any sort of special authority or holiness with respect to God. The clergy is corrupt. Christians deserve better. And, in many places, those that seek find better.
Click to expand...

Why does god have enemies?

Does your church have a preacher?
 
Ethnikos said:
Yes, this is true.
Why would you have a problem with it?

Edit to add: with one qualification, Jesus died for everyone's sins. Just to clarify a bit.
Click to expand...

Even the ones I haven't committed yet?
 
tsig said:
Even the ones I haven't committed yet?
Click to expand...
I need to clarify my earlier clarification. It would not be so obvious to most people what I would have been trying to get at. I don't think of it in terms of discrete sins being one by one paid for and forgiven by a continuous flow of holy blood or something.
I think of it more like here is an entire planet populated by a race of people who quite often do bad things, individually and as a group. A being or entity who would like to claim ownership of this planet and everything in it, may want to do something to fix his or her planet and do so by eliminating completely this species.
Jesus was a sinless person, born of a woman of this species. Though he lived without being guilty of anything that would make him worthy of such a hash penalty, he died voluntarily, when he could have just as easily been transported directly to heaven, like Elijah or Enoch. He did that to deflect the demands being made by the accuser of the people that there should be an eradication from the earth of that which is evil, and that the pronouncement made that all men will go to dust, must be upheld.
How that works exactly is probably a topic open to debate but my view is that the injustice of the execution of Jesus was so starkly apparent that it has stopped the mouth of our enemy, and opens a way for those who will follow after the example of Jesus and have him as our head and representative and to be born into his body through baptism and repentance, so we can escape an otherwise certain death sentence.
 
Last edited:
Ethnikos said:
I need to clarify my earlier clarification. It would not be so obvious to most people what I would have been trying to get at. I don't think of it in terms of discrete sins being one by one paid for and forgiven by a continuous flow of holy blood or something.
I think of it more like here is an entire planet populated by a race of people who quite often do bad things, individually and as a group. A being or entity who would like to claim ownership of this planet and everything in it, may want to do something to fix his or her planet and do so by eliminating completely this species.
Jesus was a sinless person, born of a woman of this species. Though he lived without being guilty of anything that would make him worthy of such a hash penalty, he died voluntarily, when he could have just as easily been transported directly to heaven, like Elijah or Enoch. He did that to deflect the demands being made by the accuser of the people that there should be an eradication from the earth of that which is evil, and that the pronouncement made that all men will go to dust, must be upheld.
How that works exactly is probably a topic open to debate but my view is that the injustice of the execution of Jesus was so starkly apparent that it has stopped the mouth of our enemy, and opens a way for those who will follow after the example of Jesus and have him as our head and representative and to be born into his body through baptism and repentance, so we can escape an otherwise certain death sentence.
Click to expand...

Then Jesus didn't die for my sins but for everyones' sins? His death didn't make anyone forgiven just allowed us to be forgiven if we abased ourselves enough?
 
tsig said:
Then Jesus didn't die for my sins but for everyones' sins? His death didn't make anyone forgiven just allowed us to be forgiven if we abased ourselves enough?
Click to expand...
There is this life, and afterwards, a judgement. Jesus did not die to make you immune from judgement, as in not having to appear. We have to give an accounting for what we did with the opportunities we had to do something good.
I don't know about abasement. Do you mean groveling or worshiping?
The only worship God is interested in is trying to be better persons, to not be shameful representations of those who would make a claim to being of God.
That's one of the commandments, thou shalt not take upon yourself MY name in vain.
 
Ethnikos said:
There is this life, and afterwards, a judgement. Jesus did not die to make you immune from judgement, as in not having to appear. We have to give an accounting for what we did with the opportunities we had to do something good.
I don't know about abasement. Do you mean groveling or worshiping?
The only worship God is interested in is trying to be better persons, to not be shameful representations of those who would make a claim to being of God.
That's one of the commandments, thou shalt not take upon yourself MY name in vain.
Click to expand...

Ok then Jesus didn't die for my sins since I still have to account for them, then why did he die?

How do you know what god wants?
 
tsig said:
Ok then Jesus didn't die for my sins since I still have to account for them, then why did he die?

How do you know what god wants?
Click to expand...
Jesus died because of the sin of the world, and he died in his effort to free us from death.
Part of what he was doing and which is integral to salvation is to send the Holy Ghost who through the name of Jesus has become accessible to all, though we are not holy enough ourselves to receive it.
It is by the agency of the Holy Spirit that we come to the knowledge of God.
 
Ethnikos said:
Jesus died because of the sin of the world, and he died in his effort to free us from death.
Click to expand...

no, jesus died because he was executed for breaking roman law, and his effort of being dead for three days isn't very impressive
:p
 
Complexity said:
'Proof' has meaning for me only in mathematics, and even there the assumptions that one must make are poorly understood. In philosophical discussions* and popular parlance, it is useless. In particular, 'proof' should not be used in discussions of science - 'evidence' and 'argument', yes, but not 'proof'.

* Some philosophical discussions approach the rigor required in mathematics, but they are few and far between.
Click to expand...

Very well and concisely said!! I have pointed this out a number of times but you have made it shorter and more elegant. Well done!!!:):):)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom