Chaos Magic

[sadhatter]

When I was working on an anthropology project in Mexico and Guatemala, I took some extremely strong hallucinagenic mushrooms and did I guess what you would call a "vision quest." I have to say at the time I really did feel like I was seeing "the real world" for the first time. It was an extremely intense experience. I talked to animals, plants. I was able to remotely view placed I had never been to, sending projections of my soul outwards. I was able to see music and hear colors. I was able to commune with nature and see the true nature of the universe. I suddenly UNDERSTOOD life, the universe, and everything.

But then I sobered up, and I realized that I hadn't actually done any of those things, it was just the drugs. Was it a profound experience? Sure. It made me look at the world in a totally different way. It made me interested in mysic, philosophy, and art on an entirely different and deeper level than I had before. It made me look at myself differently.

To be honest, there is still a little part of me that wonders; WAS it real? Were those my ancestors and the guardians of the rainforest talking to me? Are mushrooms really a door to the real world, letting me see what I previously could not? But ultimately...no, I don't believe there was any mysticism involved. I believe I was just on hallucinagenic mushrooms in the rainforest with some guidance from religious people which affected my mental state. Which granted, doesn't mean the experience was meaningless, it had a very profound impact on me that will probably last the rest of my life. It just doesn't make it magic.

It always amazes me when someone puts a substance into their body for the purpose of messing with their brain, and then is amazed that they had weird crap happen.

For the life of me it seems like tossing gunpowder and lighter flint into a blender then being amazed when the blender blows up because blenders normally don't do that.

 

[Limbo]

When I was working on an anthropology project in Mexico and Guatemala, I took some extremely strong hallucinagenic mushrooms and did I guess what you would call a "vision quest." I have to say at the time I really did feel like I was seeing "the real world" for the first time. It was an extremely intense experience. I talked to animals, plants. I was able to remotely view places I had never been to, sending projections of my soul outwards. I was able to see music and hear colors. I was able to commune with nature and see the true nature of the universe. I suddenly UNDERSTOOD life, the universe, and everything.

But then I sobered up, and I realized that I hadn't actually done any of those things, it was just the drugs. Was it a profound experience? Sure. It made me look at the world in a totally different way. It made me interested in mysic, philosophy, and art on an entirely different and deeper level than I had before. It made me look at myself differently.

To be honest, there is still a little part of me that wonders; WAS it real? Were those my ancestors and the guardians of the rainforest talking to me? Are mushrooms really a door to the real world, letting me see what I previously could not? But ultimately...no, I don't believe there was any mysticism involved. I believe I was just on hallucinagenic mushrooms in the rainforest with some guidance from religious people which affected my mental state. Which granted, doesn't mean the experience was meaningless, it had a very profound impact on me that will probably last the rest of my life. It just doesn't make it magic.

Sounds like a beautiful experience. Too bad there wasn't more of it that you could take with you, to keep you from falling too far back into the dominant paradigm afterwards. Oh well. Baby steps. Keep your mind in a receptive state.

 

[AkuManiMani]

When I was working on an anthropology project in Mexico and Guatemala, I took some extremely strong hallucinagenic mushrooms and did I guess what you would call a "vision quest." I have to say at the time I really did feel like I was seeing "the real world" for the first time. It was an extremely intense experience. I talked to animals, plants. I was able to remotely view placed I had never been to, sending projections of my soul outwards. I was able to see music and hear colors. I was able to commune with nature and see the true nature of the universe. I suddenly UNDERSTOOD life, the universe, and everything.

But then I sobered up, and I realized that I hadn't actually done any of those things, it was just the drugs. Was it a profound experience? Sure. It made me look at the world in a totally different way. It made me interested in mysic, philosophy, and art on an entirely different and deeper level than I had before. It made me look at myself differently.

To be honest, there is still a little part of me that wonders; WAS it real? Were those my ancestors and the guardians of the rainforest talking to me? Are mushrooms really a door to the real world, letting me see what I previously could not? But ultimately...no, I don't believe there was any mysticism involved. I believe I was just on hallucinagenic mushrooms in the rainforest with some guidance from religious people which affected my mental state. Which granted, doesn't mean the experience was meaningless, it had a very profound impact on me that will probably last the rest of my life. It just doesn't make it magic.

Whats 'magical' really depends on what one's conception of reality is. A simple slight of hand trick is 'magic' to someone if it violates their sense of reality; to the person pulling off the trick its as mundane as the pavement they walk on. All of our world views and paradigms (whether they're mystical, religious, political, scientific, or what-have-you) aren't knowledge, per se, but conceptual matrices we place varying degrees of confidence in to give ourselves as sense of 'whats real' and allow us to operate within those confines. The only real knowledge we have is our immediate experiences; all the other stuff are just lenses thru which people interpret and relate to their experiences.

A lot of what you relayed of your experincse are things that some people live on a day to day basis. You reported that you could "see music and hear colors" while under the effects of the drug; synesthetes experience such things all the time. Daniel Tammet is a synesthete who's perceptions allow him unparalleled mathematical and linguistic abilities. I personally know of one synesthete who sees people's voices as moving colors and shapes [he says my voice looks like red spinning squares ] You said you "talked to animals, plants"; shamans use information the gleamed from such interactions to create pharmacologically potent medicines and treatments for various ailments without the benefit of modern scientific methods. I've personally had an audible female voice speak directly into my mind and tell me personal information about another individual that turned out to be completely accurate. I've also had some other encounters which things that people from certain cultures would call 'spirits'.

Are such experiences 'magical'? Depends on what one defines as 'magic'. Are they 'supernatural'? That also depends on how one defines a word. Do such experiences actually happen? That is itself a dead certainty. Don't discount them just because you currently lack the conceptual frame to comfortably integrate them with your sense of reality. Reality is far vaster, and far stranger than any one person possibly fathom.

 

[sadhatter]

Sounds like a beautiful experience. Too bad there wasn't more of it that you could take with you, to keep you from falling too far back into the dominant paradigm afterwards. Oh well. Baby steps. Keep your mind in a receptive state.

I hear ya limbo i keep my computer in a receptive state by tossing powerful magnets in it, my car in a receptive state by tossing a cup of superglue into the gas tank, and my arcade machines in a receptive state by allowing children with slurpees unrestricted access to them. All proof that to make something work really well, you must seriously screw with the way it works.

I have no problems with drugs, but the fact is they screw with your brain, not improve it. And anyone who thinks otherwise has either done way too many or not enough.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Sounds like a beautiful experience. Too bad there wasn't more of it that you could take with you, to keep you from falling too far back into the dominant paradigm afterwards. Oh well. Baby steps. Keep your mind in a receptive state.

It was a really intense and awesome experience, but you don't need to feel bad for me. I still got a lot out of it even though I don't think it was a supernatural in nature.

I also meditate, though I find it difficult. I get a lot out of that too, but I think of it just as a mind exercize, not an escape into mysticism.

I respect people who see such things as spiritual tools, and I really appreciated how they explained their world view to me. One of my favorite books is Adolus Huxley's "The Doors of Perception," in which he posits that we don't see the world the way it really is, but hallucinagens allow us to do so.

It's probably because I'm an anthropology student, but I'm a much bigger fan of mysticism and spiritual/religious beliefs (though not organized religion) than your average agnostic skeptic. Even though I don't buy into mysticism myself, I find it fascinating to study.

But I also don't think one needs to believe in such things to be fulfilled. I recognize that other people find fulfillment in such pursuits, but I don't think it's necessary to appreciate an experience like the one I had.

Bill Maher had a good quote on this once. A religious person on his show was telling them that they felt sorry for his lack of religious beliefs. He said he found that patronizing, and they replied that they didn't mean it to be, it's just that when they saw him, they remembered how they themselves had felt lost prior to finding religion, and they likened their pity to that of a person who had once been hungry who now took pity on a starving person.

Bill answered (paraphrasing), "But here's the thing; I'm not like you were. I'm not hungry."

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

deleted duplicate post

 

[AkuManiMani]

I hear ya limbo i keep my computer in a receptive state by tossing powerful magnets in it, my car in a receptive state by tossing a cup of superglue into the gas tank, and my arcade machines in a receptive state by allowing children with slurpees unrestricted access to them. All proof that to make something work really well, you must seriously screw with the way it works.

I have no problems with drugs, but the fact is they screw with your brain, not improve it. And anyone who thinks otherwise has either done way too many or not enough.

Whos the toll here, again?

 

[KingMerv00]

Whos the toll here, again?

A troll is someone who starts a fight just for the fun of it, not every person who makes a point in a harsh (maybe even rude) way.

 

[Limbo]

Bill answered (paraphrasing), "But here's the thing; I'm not like you were. I'm not hungry."

Would you be hungry, had you not had your beautiful experience? You say you got a lot out of it.

 

[catsmate]

Where can I get skeptic card from and can I have the British English spelling?

Would Skeptic Trumps do? And no, skeptic it is.

 

[catsmate]

Time and space, matter and energy emerge from consciousness?

Good grief. How did the universe manage to exist before humans became aware of it?

Of course not, humans are far too important for the universe to exist without us.

 

[sadhatter]

Whos the toll here, again?

Limbo, the man who purposely makes as little sense as possible in order to draw out a thread that has at this point said nothing concrete. No need to thank me for the clarification.

Me, on the other hand am simply not doing what he wants ,which is for me to put a giant well thought out reply, to which he will reply with a cryptic grammatically anarchistic 2 line post. Then snicker because he made one of those uptight jref'ers waste time replying to him.

Once limbo starts putting actual content and effort into a post, i will reply in kind.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The only real knowledge we have is our immediate experiences; all the other stuff are just lenses thru which people interpret and relate to their experiences.

While I see what you're saying, I don't think that the only thing we have to go on is personal experience. The scientific method is a very good tool for determining the true nature of reality, and it does this by eliminating, as best it can, personal experiences, "lenses", etc. It works, too. Trusting personal experiences has contributed very little of substance to the world. The effectiveness of the scientific method is evident all around us all the time.

However you or I might experience reality, there is an objective reality. You and I might perceive the same event differently (in fact, we're almost certain to do so, even if the difference is only small, but create a hypothesis that's testable, replicable and which makes predictions and, as a community, it's possible to determine whether it's true (or, at least, consistently determine it's not untrue enough to make it being anything other than true extremely unlikely).

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Would you be hungry, had you not had your beautiful experience? You say you got a lot out of it.

Well I wasn't beforehand, and the vast majority of people I know have not undergone such an experience, and don't seem any worse off for it.


Sure I got a lot out of it, but there's lots of things in life that you get things out of without mysticism. I'm an avid hiker, for example, and when I bag a really big peak, I get a lot out of that too. I get a lot out of my marriage, and my family, and friends. I don't know if I will have kids but I imagine that if I do, I'll get a lot out of that as well.

While my mushroom vision quest was a great experience than me, it's nothing in comparison to the effect that say, having a very close and very supportive family has had on me. Being raised by awesome parents who love me has impacted my life and well being a heck of a lot more than meditation or mushrooms.

 

[Limbo]

Well I wasn't beforehand, and the vast majority of people I know have not undergone such an experience, and don't seem any worse off for it.

Sure I got a lot out of it, but there's lots of things in life that you get things out of without mysticism. I'm an avid hiker, for example, and when I bag a really big peak, I get a lot out of that too. I get a lot out of my marriage, and my family, and friends. I don't know if I will have kids but I imagine that if I do, I'll get a lot out of that as well.

While my mushroom vision quest was a great experience than me, it's nothing in comparison to the effect that say, having a very close and very supportive family has had on me. Being raised by awesome parents who love me has impacted my life and well being a heck of a lot more than meditation or mushrooms.

Yeah, but you aren't your average agnostic skeptic.

I believe that there are many people out there suffering in ways that you are not, and its due to the fact that a paradigm with no mysticism dominates modern culture. The result is rampant 'soul loss', to put it in shamanic terms.

I know there are people like you who are not hungry for spiritual food, and are tolerant of those who are. I have no problem with that. Its the people who are not hungry and are not tolerant of those who are that I have a problem with.

 

[KingMerv00]

When I was working on an anthropology project in Mexico and Guatemala, I took some extremely strong hallucinagenic mushrooms and did I guess what you would call a "vision quest." I have to say at the time I really did feel like I was seeing "the real world" for the first time. It was an extremely intense experience. I talked to animals, plants. I was able to remotely view places I had never been to, sending projections of my soul outwards. I was able to see music and hear colors. I was able to commune with nature and see the true nature of the universe. I suddenly UNDERSTOOD life, the universe, and everything.

But then I sobered up, and I realized that I hadn't actually done any of those things, it was just the drugs. Was it a profound experience? Sure. It made me look at the world in a totally different way. It made me interested in mysic, philosophy, and art on an entirely different and deeper level than I had before. It made me look at myself differently.

To be honest, there is still a little part of me that wonders; WAS it real? Were those my ancestors and the guardians of the rainforest talking to me? Are mushrooms really a door to the real world, letting me see what I previously could not? But ultimately...no, I don't believe there was any mysticism involved. I believe I was just on hallucinagenic mushrooms in the rainforest with some guidance from religious people which affected my mental state. Which granted, doesn't mean the experience was meaningless, it had a very profound impact on me that will probably last the rest of my life. It just doesn't make it magic.

I have no interest in tinkering with my brain chemistry THAT much (wooo booze!) but I have also had a "transcendent" experience.

While dreaming, there was a flash of light and a feeling of "oneness with the universe". (Of course that phrase is gibberish but that's what it felt like.) I woke up and the feeling was gone. I considered the implications for about a week and decided that the best explanation was a brief, harmless electrical event in my temporal lobe.

Fun? Sure. Magic? No.

I am glad it happened though. It helped me understand religious people better.

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

I have no interest in tinkering with my brain chemistry THAT much (wooo booze!) but I have also had a "transcendent" experience.

While dreaming, there was a flash of light and a feeling of "oneness with the universe". (Of course that phrase is gibberish but that's what it felt like.) I woke up and the feeling was gone. I considered the implications for about a week and decided that the best explanation was a brief, harmless electrical event in my temporal lobe.

Fun? Sure. Magic? No.

I am glad it happened though. It helped me understand religious people better.

That's pretty interesting. Was there anything that had happened to you the day you had the dream that might have triggered such an experience, a significant event of some kind?

And yeah, it was really intense. I had an opportunity at a later point to try ayahuasca, which is the strongest hallucinagen in the world and which is used in religious ceremonies by various tribal people. I've read other anthropologists' accounts of taking it in various ethnographies, and they describe things like seeing the end of the world and the creation of a new universe. Many describe the experience as "seeing your own soul." But I declined, I just didn't think I could handle something that intense.

 

[KingMerv00]

That's pretty interesting. Was there anything that had happened to you the day you had the dream that might have triggered such an experience, a significant event of some kind?

Nothing that day. It was soon after I discovered Carl Sagan and skepticism. The dream had a somewhat Christian context. Maybe my old brain was fighting the changes in my thought process?

 

[Schrodinger's Cat]

Nothing that day. It was soon after I discovered Carl Sagan and skepticism. The dream had a somewhat Christian context. Maybe my old brain was fighting the changes in my thought process?

Welcome to another edition of Thunderdome?

 

[KingMerv00]

Welcome to another edition of Thunderdome?

I'm not getting the reference but I hope it involves Master Blaster. That/those guy/guys was/were wicked badass.