Chaos Magic

[Robin]

As coherent as musical chords, they are

Would that be even tempered or well tempered?

 

[PixyMisa]

I was going to comment, but I see Robin has the situation well in hand.

 

[The Norseman]

I was going to comment, but I see Robin has the situation well in hand.

So one Robin who has it well in hand is worth two in the bush?

 

[punshhh]

Not quite. It's the mystics who proclaim that if you stuck feathers in your butt you'd become a chicken.

The skeptics would say, "that sounds implausible. How does this action work, exactly?"

Mystics would then say, "you have to believe first; if you don't believe, it won't work. Then, it's not *really* a physical transformation, that's just the word I used 'become.' The language is imprecise when talking about these kinds of things."

Skeptics then might say, "if it isn't a physical transformation, then how do you know if it works?"

To which the mystic responds, "once you become the chicken, you are able to see reality as it truly exists and not this illusion that you skeptics call reality."

And then the skeptic says, "great! Here are some chicken feathers. Knock yourself out."






There are mystics here on JREF who have made those claims. Who are you to tell them that they're wrong and cannot perform chaos magic?

Yes I gather there are mystics who make such claims. Well when I examine the evidence I might accept them, I have not been shown any up to now.

This is not to say that phenomena akin to 'magic' may not occur through or around them.

Ah. You practice raja yoga then, I presume?

Not currently, I did about 15 years ago, along with various other practices.

And I have fond memories of when I tried the ouja board and when I and a friend of mine made wiccan magical amulets in order to bring more love into our lives. I kept the little crystal and feather and other stuff that was rubber banded together for a fair number of years. Followed all the steps and everything. Good, innocent intentions; it still didn't work.

Yes I joined in on a few ouja boards too, I was never very interested in divination though.

The thing I find to be quite fascinating is that mystics think they're doing something that skeptics don't. The hubris can be quite amazing in some cases.

I don't, although we all do different things at the end of the day. I do woodwork, some people work in offices etc.

People do tend to become specialist in a field after years of doing it all the time. Like the owl, it has finely tuned its abilities to catch mice over many generations.

There are a huge number of skeptical JREFfers who have had these kinds of experiences, you're actually nothing special. Or rather more specifically, your experiences are nothing special. Ever had a NDE? I have. Many people have. A good friend of mine has had one and it's interesting to me to see how it's now the core of her life (not necessarily in a bad way); it redefined her and she identifies with her NDE. She has made claims of seeing the beginning of the universe and other similar statements. Alas, in my NDE, I never saw such things. Who knows? Maybe I'd be as "spiritual" as she is now.

Yes, I come across this a lot, my experiences are the same as for most other folk, perhaps its my interpretations which are different. There are a great many factors influencing how a persons life develops. Mine just happens to have developed my way and yours your way.

And speaking of mundane experiences, that's why I think that for a long while I was really into buddhism. The teachings I read and studied taught that even if or when one reached enlightenment, it was wise to treat it as nothing special. One of my favorite parables is about exactly that.

Yes, I also studied buddhism, and likewise to me enlightenment is of no importance, if for example Jesus (if he existed) passed me in the street, I might say hi or good morning, I wouldn't feel a need to disturb him.

I am content, as long as I can have a cup of tea when I want one, thats all I need in life.

And by "mundane experiences" I don't mean to belittle the experiences that you, I, all humans encounter. They are all truly amazing to me; it's just that I think it a mistake to take *one* particular experience and hold it up above all others and say "this is it. This is the meaning of ..."

Yes I quite agree, however in the mystical aspects of my life, I do assign importance to certain things only in a personal way. I think it is a good thing to have a personal private space in ones life, to experience ones own company, to be friends with yourself so to speak.

I only say this because the life of a mystic involves working with and within yourself.

 

[Resume]

I only say this because the life of a mystic involves working with and within yourself.

What does the term mystic mean? Within yourself?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

People do tend to become specialist in a field after years of doing it all the time.

That includes being adept at fooling themselves that things have significance, importance or reality when they don't.

Yes I quite agree, however in the mystical aspects of my life, I do assign importance to certain things only in a personal way. I think it is a good thing to have a personal private space in ones life, to experience ones own company, to be friends with yourself so to speak.

I do all that. There's nothing mystical about it. Can you not enjoy your own company without believing it to be more than it is?

 

[punshhh]

What does the term mystic mean? Within yourself?

The term can be summarised thus;
Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on a practice or practices intended to nurture those experiences or awareness. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.
Mystics hold that there is a deeper or more fundamental state of existence beneath the observable, day-to day world of phenomena, and that in fact the ordinary world is superficial or epiphenomenal.

My use of 'within yourself', I am refering to working with aspects of the concious and subconcious mind, emotions and the physical body.

 

[punshhh]

That includes being adept at fooling themselves that things have significance, importance or reality when they don't.

Yes many folk specialise in unconstructive things

I do all that. There's nothing mystical about it. Can you not enjoy your own company without believing it to be more than it is?

Great, so do I, I also follow pursuits/hobbies which I enjoy, such as painting, walking and mysticism among other things.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Great, so do I, I also follow pursuits/hobbies which I enjoy, such as painting, walking and mysticism among other things.

So why do you believe "hav[ing] a personal private space in ones life, [...] experienc[ing] ones own company, [...] be[ing] friends with yourself so to speak" to fall under the category of "mysticism"?

 

[Resume]

The term can be summarised thus;
Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on a practice or practices intended to nurture those experiences or awareness. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.
Mystics hold that there is a deeper or more fundamental state of existence beneath the observable, day-to day world of phenomena, and that in fact the ordinary world is superficial or epiphenomenal.

My use of 'within yourself', I am refering to working with aspects of the concious and subconcious mind, emotions and the physical body.

You can understand, I hope, that to many that are struggling with reality on a daily basis (raising kids, coping with sick parents, etc) the above sounds like bong induced hooey.

 

[dafydd]

You can understand, I hope, that to many that are struggling with reality on a daily basis (raising kids, coping with sick parents, etc) the above sounds like bong induced hooey.

Exactly. And I am still waiting for punshhh to produce evidence of the existence of this so-called god.

 

[tsig]

Yes I quite agree, however in the mystical aspects of my life, I do assign importance to certain things only in a personal way. I think it is a good thing to have a personal private space in ones life, to experience ones own company, to be friends with yourself so to speak.

I only say this because the life of a mystic involves working with and within yourself.

There are other terms for that.

 

[tsig]

The term can be summarised thus;
Mysticism is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on a practice or practices intended to nurture those experiences or awareness. Mysticism may be dualistic, maintaining a distinction between the self and the divine, or may be nondualistic.
Mystics hold that there is a deeper or more fundamental state of existence beneath the observable, day-to day world of phenomena, and that in fact the ordinary world is superficial or epiphenomenal.

My use of 'within yourself', I am refering to working with aspects of the concious and subconcious mind, emotions and the physical body.

That's all very well if you want to understand yourself, if you want to understand the world outside yourself, not so much.

 

[tsig]

Exactly. And I am still waiting for punshhh to produce evidence of the existence of this so-called god.

Apparently you have to look inside yourself to find the infinite god.

How he got in there I'll never know.

 

[AkuManiMani]

In the most general sense, yes; just as any extant entity is substantive in some way.

So you also see consciousness as an extant entity.

For comparison, is "running" an extant entity?

I'm pretty sure I've already had very lengthly discussions on this very same issue on numerous occasions -- some of which I think you even participated in. I really don't feel like explaining myself all over again.

 

[AkuManiMani]

As coherent as musical chords, they are

Would that be even tempered or well tempered?

Well tempered. I prefer to give voice to all my emotions, no matter the tonality. Its the only way one can work toward getting them to operate in harmony. The brighter and darker emotions sometimes intermingle to produce strange and powerful undertones that are hard to describe

 

[punshhh]

Well tempered. I prefer to give voice to all my emotions, no matter the tonality. Its the only way one can work toward getting them to operate in harmony. The brighter and darker emotions sometimes intermingle to produce strange and powerful undertones that are hard to describe

Nicely put,

The music of the spheres(spheres of the body).

 

[dafydd]

Nicely put,

The music of the spheres(spheres of the body).

Oh Jesu Mawr,more gibberish. I hesitate to ask,but what are the spheres of the body?

 

[The Norseman]

Oh Jesu Mawr,more gibberish. I hesitate to ask,but what are the spheres of the body?

I'm going to ask that the question only be answered if it relates to chaos magic since that's the thread.

 

[dafydd]

I'm going to ask that the question only be answered if it relates to chaos magic since that's the thread.

The believers in this nonsense seem very reluctant to comment on it.