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Challenge to CIT

Of course I know how this all works because I'm still waiting to see the 12+ videos of the OKC95 attack.
Your paranoia is amazing. Do you ever get anything right? No surprise your ability to understand any event is fogged by your complete paranoia. Stop taking drugs if you can not control the paranoia. When will you correct your errors?

Is this Criag, the same one as the guy at ATS who has complete lack of knowledge on 9/11 over there too? Oh…
 
No problem, Dom! You can just call me 16.5! It is the name I use on this cite.

You choose to hide and remain anonymous. Noted. I can add you to ignore now. At least I can respect Ryan for having the manhood to actually attach his name to his words.

We asked for sources, we get rhetoric and dodging.

Who the **** are you? Oh thats right you won't tell me.

Sigh. (I do get a kick out of your expectation that the freaking Pentagon should release its security videos to the CIT: a/k/a The Gang that Can't Get its Story Straight!)

Not CIT dimwit, the American Public has a right to see those videos.

So, you are not going to tell me where Morin was?

I have not spoken with him.

Anyhow, CIT: the OP:

"A map of the flight path depicting ANY aircraft that reasonably meets YOUR witnesses descriptions flying a path from overhead Edward Paik's business to a position North of the Citgo Station and then directly to the impact point at the Pentagon.

Your diagram should include speed, headings, bank angles, G's (both lateral and vertical), estimated altitude and pull up point to overfly the Pentagon.

Take your time and think before answering.

I will be awaiting the same from your end. Don't forget to include the VDOT Tower. ;)
 
Your paranoia is amazing. Do you ever get anything right? No surprise your ability to understand any event is fogged by your complete paranoia. Stop taking drugs if you can not control the paranoia. When will you correct your errors?

Is this Criag, the same one as the guy at ATS who has complete lack of knowledge on 9/11 over there too? Oh…


Is it your claim no videos exist of the 1995 OKC attack, "beachnut"?
 
[Ridiculous dodging deleted]

Anyhow, CIT: the OP:

"A map of the flight path depicting ANY aircraft that reasonably meets YOUR witnesses descriptions flying a path from overhead Edward Paik's business to a position North of the Citgo Station and then directly to the impact point at the Pentagon.

Your diagram should include speed, headings, bank angles, G's (both lateral and vertical), estimated altitude and pull up point to overfly the Pentagon.

There should be no extraneous words, no spin, just a map including the above requested numbers."

Take your time and think before answering.
 
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If the "wittnesses" are all lying/incorrect then why doesn't the US government release the 85+ videos they confiscated which would clearly clarify the plane's flight path?
Take your time and think before answering.

I never said all 85 show the flight path Dr. Spin. The odds though of 80+ videos in a small compressed area all missing a 757 flying around are not in your favor.

Liar! Your short term memory has really been affected.
 
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So, you want to defend your theory, do you? OK

In response to the above I issue the following challenge to "CIT" or their
representative.

A map of the flight path depicting ANY aircraft that reasonably meets YOUR witnesses descriptions flying a path from overhead Edward Paik's business to a position North of the Citgo Station and then directly to the impact point at the Pentagon.

Your diagram should include speed, headings, bank angles, G's (both lateral and vertical), estimated altitude and pull up point to overfly the Pentagon.

There should be no extraneous words, no spin, just a map including the above requested numbers.

The plausible of this will be evaluated by qualified pilots and engineers at JREF who will be the final judges on whether or not this challenge is met.

It's time to put up or shut up. Let's see the numbers proving your irrefutable "independent witness" testimony is physically possible.
TC
I guess you are here to spew hearsay, not to post "hard numbers".
Has p4t or CIT come up with an expert physics guy yet? Your FDR expert was a salesman, but I believe him. But p4t has no theories anyway, what was the point. Now you are not able to mount a defense of your failed paths, you ditch them as non-paths. Did p4t, rob, tell you the party line was not to have theories, just mislead people with implied conclusions, and fantasy, based on ignorance of 9/11 issues.

You are on ignore too. funny

oops i left out a complete somewhere...
 
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All the surveillance cameras taken after the 9/11 attacks. The cameras mounted on top of the Pentagon facing outward that clearly would have captured AA77 on it's flight path. Do you need to see pictures of the Pentagon to believe me that the place has more than it's fair share of cameras or do you believe the military HQ of the worlds greatest military doesn't/didn't have simple surveillance cameras in 2001?
You say facing outward. that pretty vague. Most video survelience cameras that I know of that are mounted on an elevated location around a building usually face downward to monitor where all the people are.

In fact the security camera at the entrance gate the was released to the public shows that it was facing across the gateway back toward the building.

Do you think that the Pentagon had a camera facing toward the CITGO. What possible reason could there have been to do so?

And even if they did release the video and it showed nothing, you would still claim the video were altered.

There is no evidence or argument sufficient to dissuade a person who has convicend himself of a belief.
 
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Liar! Your short term memory has really been affected.

I am not a liar. Out of the 85 cameras we should be able to establish a real flight path, that does not mean 85 cameras all captured images of the plane. Maybe just 2 of them did. I don't know. I, like every other American citizen, am not allowed to view any of these FBI confiscated video tapes.
 
You say facing outward. that pretty vague. Most video survelience cameras that I know of that are mounted on an elevated location around a building usually face downward to monitor where all the people are.

In fact the security camera at the entrance gate the was released to the public shows that it was facing across the gateway back toward the building.

Do you think that the Pentagon had a camera facing toward the CITGO. What possible reason could there have been to do so?

And even if they did release the video and it showed nothing, you would still claim the video were altered.

There is no evidence or argument sufficient to dissuade a person who has convicend himself of a belief.

Great post. The purpose of the camera in question was to monitor the secure perimeter in the immediate area, not the horizon. Its a very safe bet that the Pentagon does not have camera's trained on the Washington Monument or Arlington National Cemetery either, yet both are in plain view of the Pentagon.CIT's claims are nothing but a wonderful source of unintentional comedy.
 
I am not a liar. Out of the 85 cameras we should be able to establish a real flight path, that does not mean 85 cameras all captured images of the plane. Maybe just 2 of them did. I don't know. I, like every other American citizen, am not allowed to view any of these FBI confiscated video tapes.
Why don't we just line up where we found the remains for the plane with the downed poles and justify it with the FDR? Oh yeah we can't do that it was ALL planted.:rolleyes:
 
If the "wittnesses" are all lying/incorrect then why doesn't the US government release the 85+ videos they confiscated which would clearly clarify the plane's flight path?

Take your time and think before answering.

So, an impasse then TC. You have a few witnesses that say it went along a flightpath that would have it to the north of the Citgo while many others have it on a flightpath that lines up with the physical damage including the light poles that were hit.

Now, the purpose of this thread , IIRC, was to give the CIT a chance to come up with a flight path or a range of paths , that can actually be flown by real aircraft. So far you have utterly failed to do so.

Therefore what do we have; one set of witnesses that say the plane came in along a path further to the north and a group that put it on a path that at one point runs parallel to Columbia Pike and runs straight down to the Pentagon pasiing to the south of the Citgo.

We have consensus among all witness who have anything to say about the final act of the aircraft they saw, it hit the building. No one says it pulled up and over the building, no one even says they thought it had hit an upper floor.

What we also have is physical evidence, the path of destruction in the Pentagon and the downed lamp poles that agree with the second group. We also have the physics of all paths that would take the plane along a path to the north of the Citgo while also having been , at some point, over the Navy Annex, Paik, and Morin, which demonstrates that the plane simply could not perform the manouvers or at the very least be performing such a dramatic bank that it is nigh on impossible that no one would comment on it.

The ball is still firmly in the CIT/PfT court on this one. So far all paths that Craig et al have drawn on a map have been shown to be ridiculous as far as the physical capabilities of the aircraft, a pilot, or not being commented upon by any witness.
 
It’s also worth bearing in mind that it’s quite possible that a large number of the sequestered videos came from cameras that were only turned on after the impact, in order to document the aftermath.
 
I am not a liar. Out of the 85 cameras we should be able to establish a real flight path, that does not mean 85 cameras all captured images of the plane. Maybe just 2 of them did. I don't know. I, like every other American citizen, am not allowed to view any of these FBI confiscated video tapes.

Security cameras are in place to provide a view of the entrances of a building and the area in close proximity to the building. A few ground level cameras will be mounted to show specific areas and only they will show the horizon in the background. That was true for the parking gate camera. Any camera on the roof is to monitor pretty much along the front of the building and a plane doing 750 fps is only going to be in the scene through 1 or 2 frames of video and most certainly will not have any bearing on determining a path over the Citgo or not though maybe, just maybe, it might show the angle the plane hit at.

There may have been cameras mounted on the roof that looked at the parking lots. They will not show the plane since the plane simply did not go that way, there are no parking lots on the side that was hit.

There will also be security tapes of the interior of the building, hallways and common areas. Once again these will in no way help in determining a path for the plane 1000+ feet from the wall of the Pentagon, and it serves no purpose to publicise videos that may well show people being killed. No purpose that is not ghoulish and sick anyway.


So what do we have, most of the videos will not even show the plane, some might have it for a frame or two(it will be blurry given that the plane will move approx 25 feet during each scan of a 30 frame per second NTSC standard video and will only be 50 - 100 feet from the lens of a camera mounted on the roof).
A few will show people dieing, and it is very possible that none show the plane approaching the building.

Now if none do show the plane approaching the building there is no reason to release the videos other than to fulfill ghoulish fantasies. If a few do show a few frames in which the plane hits the building we know the CIT will simply claim, with nothing other than suspicion to back them, that there is another video that is being withheld that would show something that backs their fastasic tale, and that the videos that are released are faked anyway.
 
I never said all 85 show the flight path Dr. Spin. The odds though of 80+ videos in a small compressed area all missing a 757 flying around are not in your favor.

I'd sure make a bet that none of the videos show the plane. Other than the two videos from the Pentagon's parking lot security gate, why would any local business show that? Parking lot/surveillance videos normally are focused on the businesses' own property, not at the large building a few blocks away.

The FOIA request that got us the Citgo, Doubletree, and Pentagon videos (4 total) asked for any of them that show the plane or impact. A person was assigned to watch them all and release any that did - those four are what we got. So besides the odds being in my favor just because of what surveillance cameras normally look at, they're really in my favor because someone has already sorted them out.
 

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