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Challenge to CIT

Perspective

Some good analysis!

Yes, that "Guard Shack" was not the one Terry Morin was describing. Perhaps it was one of the structures in the other photos or perhaps it had been removed prior to the overhead views. The VDOT tower in NOT in the photo, it is further West of that location. I still can not identify that building in the background just above and slightly right of the "Guard Shack" in Ingersoll's photo that someone else mentioned. The photo is essentially not of much value.

CIT has had this account and the photos in their files for over a year and have not used it previously. Why?

Now, in desperation they start posting, twisting, turning, spinning, and clinging to it with great tenacity. Why? You only get three guesses two of which will be thrown out!

Terry Morin's location COULD NOT have been in between those two buildings, 4 & 5, and allow him to describe the aircraft in the detail he did. That's not what he said and that's not where he was. He said he watched the aircraft for several seconds. If it was on the path CIT described he COULD NOT have seen it for very long at all, perhaps not even for a second. He even described the trees NE of the Annex which blocked his view. If that blocked his view, he most certainly could not have watcheed the aircraft flying NoC.

The flight path they have drawn is nearly precisely the one I have PROVEN was physically and aerodynamically IMPOSSIBLE. Still no numbers from CIT or pfffft to refute that. Shouldn't other twoofers be wondering why they haven't produced some math to prove their case?

Remember, all CIT has are some contradictory, mutually exclusive statements from witnesses several years after the fact and this Terry Morin account which they are "cherry picking" more blatantly than the others.

Is it surprising that they won't reveal to whom they taken this hogwash?

They would literally be laughed out of the building.

 
Well, for one thing I'm surprised that everybody looks like they are going on with business as usual, when a bloody great plane has just suicided into a building just down the way.

I would have expected everybody to be hanging off the fence at the smokey end...


It actually looks like the majority of people are looking in that direction. the most prominent figure in the center though is walking towards the camera. The building is evacuating, either it is because it is just a damn good idea to do so on a day when planes are hitting buildings or it is quitting time.

The other CIT witnesses who said that the plane went down behind the overpass were at the Citgo which is at an elevation lower than the overpass. The Annex parking lot however is higher than both the Citgo and the Annex, or the ground level of the Pentagon for that matter. The ground slopes generally down towards Potomac. Its a common thing that water bodies reside at lower elevation than dry land;) Thus Morin is looking down and all that will get in his way will be items in his foreground or others that are tall enough to extend into his line of sight. The parking lot is flat, it is the most prominent foreground object that would interfere with his line of sight and any trees beyond that would also interfere.
 
The VDOT tower in NOT in the photo, it is further West of that location.
But it is in the photos. When trying to measure or gage relative positions of buildings in Google Earth, make sure you use their footprints. Due to perspective, tall buildings can appear to lean wildly. Their roofs may be very offset from their true(*) position. That's the case with the Navy Annex and the VDOT pole. If you draw a straight line along Annex's roofline, the VDOT pole would appear to be out of sight, if you take the building's footprint, the pole becomes visible.

(*) - true according to GEarth. Even the footprints might not be absolutely accurate.

Here's the annotated original and cropped photo.

It shows the extent of the Pentagon, the position of the VDOT camera pole and the L-shaped building, I believe they call the Butler building, at Pentagon's South East corner.

The insert showing the VDOT pole and the Pentagon's South West corner comes from this photo, also by Mr. Ingersoll.
http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/Still/2002/Marines/DM-SD-02-03873.JPEG

While there, also check this one. It offers a similar view.
http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/Still/2002/Marines/DM-SD-02-03872.JPEG

There are more of his photos if you change the file name in the URL. The series goes from
DM-SD-02-03872.JPEG
to
DM-SD-02-03932.JPEG
 
But it is in the photos. When trying to measure or gage relative positions of buildings in Google Earth, make sure you use their footprints. Due to perspective, tall buildings can appear to lean wildly. Their roofs may be very offset from their true(*) position. That's the case with the Navy Annex and the VDOT pole. If you draw a straight line along Annex's roofline, the VDOT pole would appear to be out of sight, if you take the building's footprint, the pole becomes visible.

We're speaking of TWO DIFFERENT VDOT poles. I'm speaking of the very tall/large one just SW of the Guard Shack, across Columbia BEHIND the photo view. You're addressing the one the aircraft brushed with it's wing/engine, whatever down by Washington Blvd.

Maybe we ought to label them VDOT pole 1=BIG ONE and VDOT pole 2=Small one.
 
We're speaking of TWO DIFFERENT VDOT poles. I'm speaking of the very tall/large one just SW of the Guard Shack, across Columbia BEHIND the photo view. You're addressing the one the aircraft brushed with it's wing/engine, whatever down by Washington Blvd.

Maybe we ought to label them VDOT pole 1=BIG ONE and VDOT pole 2=Small one.
Oh, the radio mast! I see it now. Correct, I was speaking of the camera pole, which is located down by the light poles that got toppled over.
 
As for people looking at the burning building. I count ten looking in that direction. In this picture
Some of those seem to definately be looking at the Pentagon while others may just be facing away from the camera.

Many people will want to be heading home, its been a traumatic day and promises to stay that way so they will be trying to get their family home and safe. Others have watched the burning Pentagon from that position and have had their fill of it. The smoke would be bothering anyone with breathing problems, and finally large office buildings have been targeted and two of them were side by side. Although the Navy Annex is not well known outside of the area it would be prudent to be well away from office buildings in the vicinity of one that has been hit by a suicide pilot when you don't know if there are others.
The scene is one of people leaving the building and at least one person certainly appears to be directing traffic which would suggest that there is some urgency to this. It is NOT panic obviously but an understandable desire to be removed from the vicinity.
 
We're speaking of TWO DIFFERENT VDOT poles. I'm speaking of the very tall/large one just SW of the Guard Shack, across Columbia BEHIND the photo view. You're addressing the one the aircraft brushed with it's wing/engine, whatever down by Washington Blvd.

Maybe we ought to label them VDOT pole 1=BIG ONE and VDOT pole 2=Small one.

VDOT tower = tall, slender pyramid, open frame, 4 legged (or is it 3?) radio tower

VDOT pole = shorter, single member construction, with a camera on top

I was wondering how celestrin could figure on the tower being in that pic. Glad that has been straightened up, I was getting dizzy.:D
 
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Forfeit?

It's that time!

Since CIT has not met the challenge on ANY forum on the Internet as far as I know, isn't it time to just declare a forfeit?

All I've seen is words, words, words, words and some videos (as if that proves anything). No math or aerodynamic proof is to be found anywhere.

As it stand now, CIT's North of Citgo in accordance with their witnesses testimony is IMPOSSIBLE with intact wings on the "decoy aircraft".

CIT, the twoof movement (BM) is dying, YOU ARE DEAD, pffft is next. If you have no objections proven with math, physics, and aerodynamics you have forfeited this challenge.

No words, CIT, a flight path, described by your witnesses, and which they support, that can be bolstered as being physically possible by using properly applied math and common aerodynamic principles.

ETA: There are 13 pages here of mostly mocking, ridicule and laughing at your ridiculous fantasy. How can you pass up this Golden Opportunity to salvage your fantasy that has been PROVEN WRONG?
 
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As it stand now, CIT's North of Citgo in accordance with their witnesses testimony is IMPOSSIBLE with intact wings on the "decoy aircraft".

No words, CIT, just a provable flight path your witnesses support and with math to prove your witnesses are correct.

A minor nitpick but the TM may well pick at it...
It can be twisted to sound like you require the witnesses to do the math
Perhaps a rewrite of that sentence.

"No words, CIT, just a flight path described by your witnesses that can be supported as being physically possible by using properly applied math and common aerodynamic principles.."
 
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I am innumerate as can be --
I am a member of the CIT!

When I was a lad I went to school
I usually was sitting on the corner stool.
The privilege I earned on my own
Was to wear the cap shaped like a cone.
I wore that cap so perpetually
That now I am a member of the CIT!

He wore it so perpetually
That now he is a member of the CIT!

I admit that what the teachers taught
Was stuff I didn't really like a lot.
I found that science just limited me,
I much preferred what I could do in fantasy.
I fantasized so continually
That now I am a member of the CIT!

He fantasized so continually
That now he is a member of the CIT!

I also found the subject, math
An obstacle to my chosen path
Correct solutions were quite esteemed,
Not the "cause I say so" answers that I dreamed.
I learned so little mathematically
That now I am a member of the CIT!

He learned so little mathematically
That now he is a member of the CIT!

Now if you believe in conspiracy
And you want to rise to the top of the tree,
Spend some time on that corner stool,
And call anyone who disagrees with you a tool.
Just repeat your theory mechanically
And you can all be members of the CIT!

Repeat his theory mechanically
And you can be a member of the CIT!
 
:D

Reminds me of Graham Chapman in "If I Weren't In the CID" in days of yore... what a great entertainer he was.
 
I am innumerate as can be --
I am a member of the CIT!

When I was a lad I went to school
I usually was sitting on the corner stool.
The privilege I earned on my own
Was to wear the cap shaped like a cone.
I wore that cap so perpetually
That now I am a member of the CIT!

He wore it so perpetually
That now he is a member of the CIT!

...


Great stuff! :dl:
 
:D

Reminds me of Graham Chapman in "If I Weren't In the CID" in days of yore... what a great entertainer he was.

If I were not a physicist, something else I'd rather be.
If I were not a physicist, a demolition expert me.
With some thermite here and some thermate there I'd sing this happy song,
With some Hush-a-Boom and InvisiCrete I'd pull it all day long!

BTW, nice work, TjW!

Dave
 
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For starters because we're a little more legitimate we actually find real eyewitnesses instead of asking our friends to anonymously be one over the phone for us.

We actually consider eyewitness testimony to be extremely credible especially when corroborated multiple times over.

We definitely don't "cherry pick" if you know some witnesses who saw the plane on the South of Citgo please interview them. You know some witnesses who really saw a falcon 20 please interview them.

We're looking forward to your presentation.

Of all of your witnesses, how many saw the plane fly over the pentagon? Actually don't answer here. I'll bump an old thread.


And here's the bump.
 
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Its nice to see the traffic to the pentagon section dropping off.
CIT whines about JREF BUT they need JREF because without JREF they wouldnt have anything to talk about.
It is fun to see Dom and Aldo unravel like they are.
I am flattered that Aldo and Craig have nothing better to do then tothat alter pictures of me!
I feel soooo special!
I spoke with Craig today about the pic and he acted like a high school kid.
Aldo wouldnt talk to me man to man so further proof that he is a coward.
These guys are a joke.
 

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