Chain of Custody

What is not expected/understandable, is iron-rich microspheres.

MM

"The production of elemental (pure) iron...

Your reply failed in the first half of the first sentence.

Come back when you have something about iron-rich material, not pure iron material.

(It's not like the difference between "iron-rich" and "iron" hasn't been pointed out to you about a hundred times...)
 
I probably spend too much time here anyway, but Chris' project interests me. I've said more than once that I think his desire to learn more about the composition of the dust is sincere and necessary.

Unfortunately, his methods have to be put through the same scrutiny that any other investigation would undergo, tedious as that might be. I've simply found some of his statements to be specious. I know you guys don't like it when one of your own is held to such a high standard.

Did you apply the same kind of scrutiny to the labs chosen by Harrit e.al.? For example, do you think they picked a compentent lab guy to do the DSC test? (Hint: That lab guy, Jeff Farrer, admits openly that he had never done a DSC test before and quickly learned how to work the machine just for the red-gray chips)
 
Your reply failed in the first half of the first sentence.

Come back when you have something about iron-rich material, not pure iron material.

(It's not like the difference between "iron-rich" and "iron" hasn't been pointed out to you about a hundred times...)

Perfect example of how CT are not trying to convince anyone else as much as themselves....
 
As a journalist you probably have a sense when someone is changing his story. You went from saying that you personally rejected "over two dozen" scientists. Now you're saying that rejected about a dozen and the other half recused themselves. That's quite a shift.
So which is worse, clarifying something I said to make it more precise or attacking someone's professional integrity for reporting lots of iron in a dust study but not using the term iron-rich spheres? I submit the latter is libel and should not be tolerated. Red you or MM or SLT or someone needs to either prove that Millette puts out deceptive studies or dissociate yourselves from Kevin Ryan/Cate Jenkins et al's libelous accusations.
 
That would require them actually doing something, Chris. Not going to happen.

They're just happy sitting there, wallowing in their own misery, attempting to project it onto others.

It's rather pathetic.
 
"So which is worse, clarifying something I said to make it more precise or attacking someone's professional integrity for reporting lots of iron in a dust study but not using the term iron-rich spheres? I submit the latter is libel and should not be tolerated. Red you or MM or SLT or someone needs to either prove that Millette puts out deceptive studies or dissociate yourselves from Kevin Ryan/Cate Jenkins et al's libelous accusations."

Clarifying or backsliding?

Millette did a great deal of analysis on the WTC dust and unlike USGS, RJ Lee, and FEMA, the best he was willing to acknowledge was;
""In addition to the elements quantified by ICP/MS analyses, the SEM dispersive X-ray analyses showed large signals for iron and calcium, which are major components of construction materials."

You are way too eager to dismiss the importance of those iron-rich microspheres Chris.

They stand out quite dramatically under a microscope, and their level of purity is quite astonishing given the conditions that they were supposed to exist under.

I think your overreaction to the word "deceptive" and your ensuing suggestion that such usage is libelous, is quite a bizarre reaction to a legitimate point.

Your work in finding an independent scientist to do this research is much appreciated but I think it is quite unfair to react so strongly to valid concerns about his credibility.

I cannot prove that Millette deliberately chose to ignore the iron-rich microspherical nature of the iron he observed in the WTC dust.

But other investigators of the WTC dust did take note and seemed more appreciative of the significance of such a finding.

Evidence of possible previous scientific obfuscation by someone who was previously involved in a major study of the WTC dust is a matter of reasonable concern.

MM
 
You are way too eager to dismiss the importance of those iron-rich microspheres Chris.

...And you're not way too eager to magnify their importance, are you?

I mean, how unlikely. Iron-Rich Microspheres found in the rubble of 220 floors of office space. I mean, how unexpected! Iron found in tons of steel!


I think it is quite unfair to react so strongly to valid concerns about his credibility.

If only there were valid concerns.

But other investigators of the WTC dust military-grade idiots did take note and seemed more appreciative of the significance of such a finding.

FTFY
 
.....
You are way too eager to dismiss the importance of those iron-rich microspheres Chris.

They stand out quite dramatically under a microscope, and their level of purity is quite astonishing given the conditions that they were supposed to exist under.

.........
MM

If you don't reply to posts #179 and #181 I'm going to sic The German on you.

:p

By the way, it may surprise you that neither Jones' paper, RJ Lee's report , USGS Dust Atlas Spectra, nor Harritt/Jones' paper produced test results of any elemental (pure) iron microspheres.

USGS Dust Atlas spectra for iron-rich microspheres.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2005/1165/graphics/IRON-03.jpg


You've been fooled again.
Carefully read and understand how Jones did it.

I understand - you can't help it, it's because you want to believe.
 
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http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com...agazines-science-of-controlled-demolitions/2/
"But Steven E. Jones, Jeffrey Farrer, Gregory S. Jenkins, Frank Legge, James Gourley, Kevin Ryan, Daniel Farnsworth, and Crockett Grabbe studied the “high-iron, relatively low oxygen spheres” found in the WTC dust and found that they “are unlike spheres gathered from cutting structural steel with an oxyacetylene torch.”
http://www.journalof911studies.com/articles/WTCHighTemp.pdf

Hope this helps with your question.

MM

Of course they did. Guess who these people are? Same people who wrote the first sham paper and published it in a sham pay-to-publish journal.

Gee, imagine that......:rolleyes:
 
You are way too eager to dismiss the importance of those iron-rich microspheres Chris.

They stand out quite dramatically under a microscope, and their level of purity is quite astonishing given the conditions that they were supposed to exist under.

And yet, you still refuse to answer why these iron-rich microspheres are any more significant than the iron-rich microspheres formed by setting steel wool on fire with a lighter?
:rolleyes:
 
Tell Jim this is what he should do!!!

Let him ignite the stuff by heating to ignition in air, as the scientists at LLNL also did, and measure:

1. The ignition temperature -- does it agree with Harrit/Jones et al findings on ignition temps for red/gray chips from different locations?

2. And most important --[ICOLOR="Gray"] does the ignited stuff make many SPHERES RICH IN REDUCED IRON? [/COLORI]

The experimenter (Jim-bo) needs to examine the chip before ignition to make sure it has no spheres , then conduct the ignition test and look again. J/H et al had LOTS of SPHERES RICH IN REDUCED IRON:D, following ignition. If so, provide SEM and XEDS results as Jones/Harrit did for comparison with thier data.

My prediction:
Ignition of this paint will NOT produce SPHERES RICH IN REDUCED IRON

(note: reduced iron means -- elemental iron present, not just iron oxide present in the original paint.);):p
 
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Clarifying or backsliding?

You are way too eager to dismiss the importance of those iron-rich microspheres Chris.

MM

If you happened to hear the debate Chris had with Gage (the second one), Chris completely dismisses the topic of the Iron rich Micro spheres. He says something to the fact that, "he had better wait to check out his facts" or something like " I better wait to answer that one Richard"...LOL...Does that sound like a winning argument to anyone??? I'm sure Oystien will think so, won't you old boy??

I can look up the exact quote if you need it, but I'm sure everyone here will simply just......take my word. Seems thats how they conduct science over at JREF...." oh he said you saw that, I believe it without my own eyes!!!"
 
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And yet, you still refuse to answer why these iron-rich microspheres are any more significant than the iron-rich microspheres formed by setting steel wool on fire with a lighter?
:rolleyes:

They are more significant because Harriet/ Jones spheres were previously molten and it a tear drop shape. That constitutes surface tension which allows it to be pulled into that shape. Those things you seem to think are any relevance what so ever to the sphere's in the Bentham paper are not near hot enough to make them previously liquid and therfore.....are ruled out. Temperature temperature young man.

But nice try. Oh....and thats a Acetylene torch bud, not a lighter.
 
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If you happened to hear the debate Chris had with Gage (the second one), Chris completely dismisses the topic of the Iron rich Micro spheres. He says something to the fact that, "he had better wait to check out his facts" or something like " I better wait to answer that one Richard"...LOL...Does that sound like a winning argument to anyone??? I'm sure Oystien will think so, won't you old boy??

I can look up the exact quote if you need it, but I'm sure everyone here will simply just......take my word. Seems thats how they conduct science over at JREF...." oh he said you saw that, I believe it without my own eyes!!!"
SLT here are my debate notes. In the debate with Gage I had 60 seconds to respond and used these notes to quickly review the evidence as I understood it then. At the time I was unaware how common iron-rich microspheres are in fires but I went through various possibilities I found, rejected some arguments (like printer toner) and suggested other possibilities (welders in the 70s):


Reason # Iron microspheres are present, but if thermitics were used then they would leave tons of formerly melted iron blobs in the debris. We have not found this.

Debunkers speculate the microspheres are from extensive torch-cutting of the debris following the collapse–which I have determined is unlikely--, combusted coal from the residue of the original concrete [NOTE: my YouTube video shows iron rich spheres in concrete], or printer tone, small pockets of intense heat–claims which I have been unable to substantiate.


But back in the early 70s, hundreds of welders involved in the construction of the towers heated the steel with their welding torches to a temperature high enough to build these iron-rich microspheres right into the structure. Richard, do you think the iron microspheres could have come from the welders during the original construction in 1972-73?

Whoa, how did Chain of Custody turn into an argument about what I said last year re iron microspheres?
 
They are more significant because Harriet/ Jones spheres were previously molten and it a tear drop shape. That constitutes surface tension which allows it to be pulled into that shape. Those things you seem to think are any relevance what so ever to the sphere's in the Bentham paper are not near hot enough to make them previously liquid and therfore.....are ruled out. Temperature temperature young man.

But nice try. Oh....and thats a Acetylene torch bud, not a lighter.
regardless of the source of ignition quickly waved past the steel wool the combustion was self sustaining.
 
SLT here are my debate notes. In the debate with Gage I had 60 seconds to respond and used these notes to quickly review the evidence as I understood it then. At the time I was unaware how common iron-rich microspheres are in fires

Please show me a reference to formerly molten elemental iron rich micro sphere's which resulted from a fire.

Debunkers speculate the microspheres are from extensive torch-cutting of the debris following the collapse–

What about the sample taken off the Brooklyn Bridge right after it happened?? They didn't do any torch cutting on the BB did they? If so show me by citation:p.

But back in the early 70s, hundreds of welders involved in the construction of the towers heated the steel with their welding torches to a temperature high enough to build these iron-rich microspheres right into the structure. Richard, do you think the iron microspheres could have come from the welders during the original construction in 1972-73?

No they don't. They're the same micro spheres that appear when you heat the red/gray chip to 430 C.:eek:
 
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They are more significant because Harriet/ Jones spheres were previously molten and it a tear drop shape. That constitutes surface tension which allows it to be pulled into that shape. Those things you seem to think are any relevance what so ever to the sphere's in the Bentham paper are not near hot enough to make them previously liquid and therfore.....are ruled out. Temperature temperature young man.

But nice try. Oh....and thats a Acetylene torch bud, not a lighter.

Here, try this one:
 
MM, SLT, RedIbis: I don't care very much about all those iron-rich microspheres, but anyway...

- When ordinary sheeple like we JREF debunkers see some evidence that some red-gray chips were found in WTC dust, we strongly tend to find an ordinary explanation for their origin: They are all very probably particles of some red paints, since such paints were provably used in WTC (contrary to thermites).

- When we ordinary sheeple see some evidence that a significant portion of various microspheres (including iron rich) were found in the dust, we tend to find an ordinary explanation as well (following a wise principle of Occam's razor). The most probable/largest source of such spheres is apparently a fly ash, frequently added to concrete for many decades, which consists almost solely of such microspheres, including some iron-rich (see e.g. Wiki). The second most probable sources are WTC fires themselves, since such fires must produce some ash. Other sources (welding work etc) can also produce some minor portion of such round tiny things, namely those with a really high iron content. There are perhaps tens of possible sources of such iron rich microspheres and even un-intended thermitic reaction might occur during WTC catastrophe in fire zones, e.g., reaction of hot aluminum with iron oxide in rust and/or primer paint containing iron oxide.

Unfortunately, there seems to be no direct proof that fly ash was used in lightweight concrete casted on WTC floors (apparently the most massive use of concrete in WTC). In my favorite NCSTAR 1-6b report (p. 21), there is a note that no record on the actual concrete mixture (its composition) was found. In the concrete mixture used for test floors, a kind of Haydite ("expanded shale, clay and slate") was applied by NIST (together with cement, sand and water), to attain similar density and mechanical properties (strength) as for original concrete. Haydite, however, seems not to contain microspheres, but microcavities in the bulk material instead.

We simply don't know if fly ash was added to WTC floor concrete. Almond, who has a lot of experience in analyzing concrete, thinks, that fly ash was used for sure. Some others are not so sure. Anyway: if truthers want to seriously claim that microspheres can come mostly from the intended thermitic reaction, they first must exclude the possibility that they don't come from fly ash and other really probable sources. Good luck:cool:
 
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From what I can see, truthers have made NO attempt to eliminate any other potential sources of these microspheres. They've decided it can only be thermite, and since that fits into their beliefs, they are satisfied with it. Debate over.

It's about as far away from the scientific method as one can get.
 

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