CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

paulhutch said:
From the linked articel:


Bad idea, telling a cop at a stop that you have a gun while you are reaching for something the cop can't see. A more experienced cop would likely have told him to stop reaching and get out of the car. It's far safer to tell the cop either before or after, but not while, reaching for your ID.
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You don't know this. Are you trying to excuse this cop? What is wrong with people that feel the need to blame the victim?

The guy is a cafeteria manager in a school, no record. A calm woman tells the hysterical cop, "you told him to get his ID, he was reaching for his wallet."

The hysterical cop screams that he told him to keep his hands where he could see them.

I believe the calm woman over the hysterical cop, myself.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
You don't know this. Are you trying to excuse this cop? What is wrong with people that feel the need to blame the victim?
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For one thing, it's important that people know that these incidents happen because the "victim" acted badly - and if they don't act badly, this won't happen to them.

By the way, if you're being robbed and somebody trains a gun on you, my advice is exactly the same. Don't move when you are told not to move. And, again, if you move and get shot, no sympathy.
 
AdamSK said:
For one thing, it's important that people know that these incidents happen because the "victim" acted badly - and if they don't act badly, this won't happen to them.

By the way, if you're being robbed and somebody trains a gun on you, my advice is exactly the same. Don't move when you are told not to move. And, again, if you move and get shot, no sympathy.
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There really isn't a difference between cops and felons then. It is your job to keep them calm and they have no responsibilty
 
AdamSK said:
For one thing, it's important that people know that these incidents happen because the "victim" acted badly - and if they don't act badly, this won't happen to them.

By the way, if you're being robbed and somebody trains a gun on you, my advice is exactly the same. Don't move when you are told not to move. And, again, if you move and get shot, no sympathy.
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I get the sense that there'd be no sympathy from you regardless of circumstance.
 
Bikewer said:
Just a few points. You are a young black man, with a CCW, driving around with a "busted taillight".

This is likely not the best idea to start with.

Upon being stopped, you'd think the lad would have kept his hands on the steering wheel, told the police officer clearly that he was a CCW permit holder, and that he was armed.... And asked for directions.

We get the impression that he was fishing for his wallet and perhaps the officer saw the pistol? That's not clear.
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Not too long ago we had the black guy who got out of his car, the cop asked him for ID, he turned to get it out of the car and the cop shot him.

I'm sorry, I know you do everything to blame the victim here but give the citizen a break here, cop asked him for ID, he said he had a permitted weapon. There is no reason in that exchange to think the victim was going for his gun.

Where is the cop's common sense and responsibility handling his weapon in this case?

Death penalty for not reading the cop's mind?

Come on.
 
ponderingturtle said:
There really isn't a difference between cops and felons then.
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Felons are more likely to go to jail if they shoot.

It is your job to keep them calm and they have no responsibilty
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The fact that you feel the need to lie about my position is pretty persuasive evidence that my actual position must not be that objectionable. So thanks.
 
AdamSK said:
The cop told him not to reach for anything. He reached for something. He got shot. No sympathy.
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Hysterical cop swears that's what he said. Calm witness says, "no you didn't."

Why do you believe the hysterical cop?
 
ponderingturtle said:
Contempt of cop clearly deserving a death sentence. Here I thought people legally carrying guns were not threatening, so why the high stress? It is almost as if he found the CCW permit by a black man inherently threatening.
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In this case there is not even evidence of contempt of cop.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not too long ago we had the black guy who got out of his car, the cop asked him for ID, he turned to get it out of the car and the cop shot him.
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I have never, once, seen someone give an honest summary of one of these cases. So perhaps you will name and link to the case, and we can assess if the facts fit your depiction.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Not too long ago we had the black guy who got out of his car, the cop asked him for ID, he turned to get it out of the car and the cop shot him.

I'm sorry, I know you do everything to blame the victim here but give the citizen a break here, cop asked him for ID, he said he had a permitted weapon. There is no reason in that exchange to think the victim was going for his gun.

Where is the cop's common sense and responsibility handling his weapon in this case?

Death penalty for not reading the cop's mind?

Come on.
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Oh blame the heroically decorated cop for one little mistake in shooting an innocent person now. The standard is cops are never responsible for their actions and can not be held accountable and anything they do to anyone is that it was their fault.
 
lionking said:
You of all people should recognise deliberate hyperbole when you see it.

The police here were poorly trained cowboys.

I've said it time and time again. The biggest problem with policing in the US is the vast number of police forces, each with different standards of recruitment, training and policy setting. A "force" of a hundred police can't have the same standards as the Met, the RCMP or state forces of 15,000+ in Australia.

Small forces have small mindsets and poor training. Leading to stupid events like this. Amalgamate US forces. Have state forces. Learn from others. For one of the very rare times.
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That's just ignorance, though.

Only a very few megalopolis areas have their own police academies and even those are heavily regulated by the various states from which everyday law enforcement powers are derived. Academy recruits have to meet both those standards to attend the academy and the standards of the local jurisdiction. On top of that, there is a set of standards promulgated by the federal government in order to receive funding, participate in data sharing and to comply with various federal legislation.

Local forces are, by-and-large, enforcing state laws and codes (or local codes set up to comply with state models in the case of local traffic ordinances), using largely state training and policies set by state and federal courts.
 
AdamSK said:
I have never, once, seen someone give an honest summary of one of these cases. So perhaps you will name and link to the case, and we can assess if the facts fit your depiction.
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Me either, the cops usually lie.

If you want a link to the guy who turned to get his ID, give me a minute.
 
AdamSK said:
Why do I believe the hysterical person is less likely to be lying than the calm one? :rolleyes:
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Because the hysterical person was not acting reasonably. There is no way in that situation that the cop was reasonable to think that victim was reaching for a gun, no way that cop took the time to clearly state put your hands on the wheel or anything.

Black guy moves, cop shoots.

If the cop really did say don't move your hands, why wouldn't the victim do that?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
You don't know this. Are you trying to excuse this cop? What is wrong with people that feel the need to blame the victim?

The guy is a cafeteria manager in a school, no record. A calm woman tells the hysterical cop, "you told him to get his ID, he was reaching for his wallet."

The hysterical cop screams that he told him to keep his hands where he could see them.

I believe the calm woman over the hysterical cop, myself.
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Since you seem to be asserting your person belief as argument, I guess it's only fair to point out how consistently and profoundly wrong you've been in the past. Tax Day, and all...

How about waiting for evidence to shed light on this event.
 
Cylinder said:
That's just ignorance, though.

Only a very few megalopolis areas have their own police academies and even those are heavily regulated by the various states from which everyday law enforcement powers are derived. Academy recruits have to meet both those standards to attend the academy and the standards of the local jurisdiction. On top of that, there is a set of standards promulgated by the federal government in order to receive funding, participate in data sharing and to comply with various federal legislation.

Local forces are, by-and-large, enforcing state laws and codes (or local codes set up to comply with state models in the case of local traffic ordinances), using largely state training and policies set by state and federal courts.
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So states have finally reached treating the police with the level of professional that they have treated barbers with for decades? That every state has professional standards for them.

It does not seem to be universal yet by this article though

"The 2012 IADLEST Survey indicates that 86 percent of the 36 states reporting have some form of police licensure and revocation. This finding is consistent with the research of Professor Roger Goldman who reports that 44 states authorize a state agency, typically POST, to license police officers and to also revoke such licenses.8"

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display&article_id=3266&issue_id=22014

So simply hiring people and giving them only on the job training with no formal academy training is likely still allowed in a few states.
 
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